Shedding Skins and Finding Light: The Living Magic of Ancient Myth

Maria: 00:00:23

Hello from Cork.

Jim: 00:00:24

Hello from New York.

Maria: 00:00:25

Is mise Máire, Seanchai Chorcaí.

Maria: 00:00:28

It's Maria, the Cork-based storyteller.

Jim: 00:00:31

It's me, Jim, here in Fayetteville, New York.

Maria: 00:00:33

We can't wait to tell you a few stories.

Jim: 00:00:40

So Maria, it's good to be back.

Jim: 00:00:42

It's good to be back at the Cork to New York podcast with you.

Maria: 00:00:47

It is.

Maria: 00:00:48

And we've had some lovely guests, and it's lovely to be dancing down the road with

Maria: 00:00:53

people on the story road like ourselves.

Maria: 00:00:55

But it's also really nice to be just here with you, and this

Maria: 00:01:00

one is a complete celebration.

Jim: 00:01:03

Yes.

Jim: 00:01:04

Today, so as we get started, I will be doing a four-session seminar

Jim: 00:01:10

on the story I'm about to tell.

Jim: 00:01:13

And I thought I would give our podcast viewers, our loyal podcast

Jim: 00:01:18

viewers, the opportunity to hear the story before anyone else.

Jim: 00:01:22

And so that's what I have in mind for us today.

Maria: 00:01:24

Oh, I'm, I'm so excited because it's that kind of story that nibbles at

Maria: 00:01:30

the edge of your consciousness, and not only does it mean different things to

Maria: 00:01:35

different people as you're telling it, like if you're telling it to 30 people,

Maria: 00:01:40

30 versions are sure to go on their way.

Maria: 00:01:43

But not only that, but I find working with you, Jim, that is, you could do

Maria: 00:01:48

the very same work with me, um, today, and in a month's time if we repeat

Maria: 00:01:53

it, I get different results or I get different nuances, and I love that.

Maria: 00:01:59

It's like really the shape-shifting power of storytelling, and I'm so

Maria: 00:02:03

excited for this course and for you inviting me to come along.

Maria: 00:02:07

Thank you for that.

Jim: 00:02:07

Yes.

Jim: 00:02:08

Absolutely.

Jim: 00:02:09

And you know, the same is true for me as the teller.

Jim: 00:02:12

That I'm telling a new story each time,

Jim: 00:02:15

Yes.

Jim: 00:02:15

Yeah

Jim: 00:02:15

… no matter, no matter what I intend.

Maria: 00:02:18

I know that experience, yeah.

Jim: 00:02:21

So today I'll share this story, and it comes to me from Morocco,

Jim: 00:02:26

dear in our heart for both of us.

Maria: 00:02:28

So much so, yeah.

Jim: 00:02:30

I've found two versions of it.

Jim: 00:02:33

I'll be telling the one that speaks to me most deeply.

Jim: 00:02:37

But as I researched it, this was a story that was told in Morocco probably by the

Jim: 00:02:45

Kabylia people, which is up in the north.

Jim: 00:02:48

It was retold in Eastern Europe.

Jim: 00:02:52

So it's, it's traveled around as well.

Jim: 00:02:54

Yeah.

Jim: 00:02:55

Um, and-

Maria: 00:02:56

Good and wise stories do travel.

Maria: 00:02:58

Th-

Jim: 00:02:58

They certainly do.

Jim: 00:02:59

They certainly do.

Jim: 00:03:01

The name of this story is Lunja, and this is one of the times I

Jim: 00:03:04

can tell you the name because it doesn't give anything away.

Jim: 00:03:10

Um, so let's begin.

Jim: 00:03:13

Lunja was a beautiful, beautiful, beautiful child.

Jim: 00:03:20

She was an only child.

Jim: 00:03:23

And she was so beautiful that her parents worried what would

Jim: 00:03:29

happen if anyone ever saw her.

Jim: 00:03:32

And so they kept her locked up in the house.

Jim: 00:03:37

Her father would go away and work in the fields, but her mother

Jim: 00:03:41

would be home and care for her.

Jim: 00:03:44

And day followed month followed year, and she grew older and older,

Jim: 00:03:53

and she never left the house.

Jim: 00:03:55

No one came to visit her.

Jim: 00:03:57

They just kept her all secure.

Jim: 00:04:02

Well, it's not hard to imagine that if you were that young child,

Jim: 00:04:06

you would be awfully curious about what was going outside the house.

Jim: 00:04:11

So it happened that one day her father and her mother were away, and she

Jim: 00:04:18

decided to check out the outdoors.

Jim: 00:04:21

And she opened the door and she slipped outside and as if by magic,

Jim: 00:04:29

five beautiful birds landed right in front of her, and they looked

Jim: 00:04:36

up at her like they were hungry.

Jim: 00:04:40

And she thought, "Oh, I've got to feed them." So she went into the house and

Jim: 00:04:45

she brought out some grain and she fed them, but they still wouldn't eat.

Jim: 00:04:51

And she tried all sorts of other things to feed them, but they just looked at

Jim: 00:04:55

her like, "Feed us. Feed us." Now how would she ever have thought of this?

Jim: 00:05:03

But she thought, "Well, maybe they need something more beautiful." And

Jim: 00:05:07

she took out her mother's jewels.

Jim: 00:05:11

And she brought her jewels to feed to the birds, and they immediately

Jim: 00:05:15

picked them up and they flew away.

Jim: 00:05:19

But they didn't fly far.

Jim: 00:05:22

And she thought, "Oh, I'm gonna be in trouble now. I've got to get those

Jim: 00:05:26

jewels back." So she went running after them, and they waited until she was

Jim: 00:05:31

almost there and they flew away again.

Jim: 00:05:35

And every time she got close, they flew just a little further away until

Jim: 00:05:41

they came to the edge of the forest.

Jim: 00:05:45

As she approached them that time, they said, "Don't come any further. It's

Jim: 00:05:54

dangerous here. Our mother is a ghoul."

Jim: 00:06:00

And so they said to her, "Do you want to go back home or

Jim: 00:06:06

do you want to go with us?"

Jim: 00:06:11

She said, "Let the river that takes you take me." And she followed them in.

Jim: 00:06:20

They traveled through the forest until they came to a great dark cavern.

Jim: 00:06:27

And the birds said to her, "Our mother is inside. She's a fierce

Jim: 00:06:35

ghoul. Are you sure you want to come?"

Jim: 00:06:40

And she said, "Let the river that takes you take me." And they

Jim: 00:06:45

said, "Okay, here's what you do.

Jim: 00:06:49

She's going to be laying down at this time of day, and as you enter the

Jim: 00:06:57

cavern, you're gonna find a needle.

Jim: 00:07:00

Ask the needle to let you through, and the needle will

Jim: 00:07:03

open up and you can pass through.

Jim: 00:07:07

And when you do that, she'll fall asleep.

Jim: 00:07:11

And then you have to sneak in behind her, and her breasts are so large

Jim: 00:07:19

and so long that she flops them over her shoulders when she sleeps.

Jim: 00:07:26

And so you have to crawl up behind her and suckle at each breast.

Jim: 00:07:33

And when you've done that, you'll be safe."

Jim: 00:07:40

What else could she do?

Jim: 00:07:42

She went up, she found the needle, she spoke to it.

Jim: 00:07:45

"Please let me in." It let her in.

Jim: 00:07:48

She snuck in and there, sure enough, was this horrible ghoul with these

Jim: 00:07:55

long breasts thrown over her shoulders.

Jim: 00:07:59

And she did just as she is told, and she suckled.

Jim: 00:08:05

And with that, the ghoula woke up

Jim: 00:08:12

- and she was angry.

Jim: 00:08:15

And then she realized what had happened.

Jim: 00:08:20

And she said, "Now that you've suckled from me, I can't eat you. If

Jim: 00:08:28

you hadn't done that, I would have eaten you flesh, blood, and bone.

Jim: 00:08:36

But now you're my milk daughter, and you'll stay with me forever."

Jim: 00:08:47

And then each day, the ghoula would go out and she would find some

Jim: 00:08:53

food and bring it back for Lunja.

Jim: 00:08:58

And it was good food, but she knew she couldn't leave.

Jim: 00:09:04

And it seemed like it would go on forever.

Jim: 00:09:10

And as she was hiding in this cave, guarded by this ghoula,

Jim: 00:09:17

you know what happened?

Jim: 00:09:19

Her hair grew longer and longer and longer.

Jim: 00:09:24

And every night, the ghoula would braid her hair, and then she would unbraid

Jim: 00:09:30

her hair, and she would count the number of hairs that she had, 'cause that's

Jim: 00:09:36

how carefully she was watching over.

Jim: 00:09:41

Now, in a remote land, she had a cousin who she had never met, of

Jim: 00:09:48

course, nobody had ever met her.

Jim: 00:09:51

And this cousin, he was not… You know, he was the son of a sultan.

Jim: 00:09:56

He was all stuck up.

Jim: 00:09:59

He was just a bully.

Jim: 00:10:01

And his friends were just getting tired of how much he would

Jim: 00:10:08

bully them and push them around.

Jim: 00:10:11

So they went to his grandmother and said, "You, you've gotta help us."

Jim: 00:10:16

And she said, "I know this boy.

Jim: 00:10:17

I'll, I'll, I'll help you." She said, "The next time that he pushes one of you,

Jim: 00:10:25

you push him back and you push him into my house, and I'll take care of him."

Jim: 00:10:32

And so that happened.

Jim: 00:10:35

And as they pushed him into her house, she grabbed him by the scruff of the

Jim: 00:10:40

neck and said, "Why are you such a bully?

Jim: 00:10:42

You treat everybody-- You're just a weak, young boy.

Jim: 00:10:47

You don't know anything.

Jim: 00:10:49

You, you have a cousin who's being held by a monster, and you won't

Jim: 00:10:53

do anything to take care of her."

Jim: 00:10:58

And she so wounded his pride that he said, "I'll take care of her."

Jim: 00:11:05

She said, "Well, good luck, 'cause she's being held by a ghoul." And one thing

Jim: 00:11:11

led to another, and he decided he was gonna ride off and find his cousin.

Jim: 00:11:16

And so he got on his beautiful white horse, and he took his wonderful greyhound

Jim: 00:11:22

with him, and they rode off to the forest.

Jim: 00:11:27

He went for miles and miles and miles.

Jim: 00:11:32

And everyone he asked, "Do you know where this ghoula lives? Do you know where this

Jim: 00:11:35

ghoula lived?" But nobody could help him.

Jim: 00:11:41

But he came upon an old woman at the edge of the forest, and she knew the ghoula.

Jim: 00:11:48

And he told her what he was trying to do.

Jim: 00:11:52

And she said, "You don't realize how dangerous this ghoula is, but

Jim: 00:11:56

I'll help you. I'll help you save your cousin. You stay here in my

Jim: 00:12:02

hut, and I'll go check things out."

Jim: 00:12:08

And the old woman went to the ghoula's cavern.

Jim: 00:12:12

She stayed outside, and she watched and watched, and noticed

Jim: 00:12:16

when she came and when she left.

Jim: 00:12:20

And she came back to the cousin and said, "Go in the marketplace and buy

Jim: 00:12:26

me some fat." He said, "Are we ready to rescue her yet?" "No, no, not yet.

Jim: 00:12:31

It's gonna take time."

Jim: 00:12:33

So he went and he got the fat, and she took the fat to the ghoula's cavern,

Jim: 00:12:37

and she fed the birds with it, and helped them feel comfortable with her.

Jim: 00:12:46

And then a few more days went by, and she kept watching and watching,

Jim: 00:12:52

and she called out to Lunja, "Come.

Jim: 00:12:56

I'm a friend of your cousin's and we're gonna rescue you.

Jim: 00:13:00

Tell us what goes on in there." And so Lunja came out to the edge of the

Jim: 00:13:05

cave, and she told her this and that about when she slept, when she woke up,

Jim: 00:13:11

what she did, and she said, "There's secrets that she's never told me."

Jim: 00:13:19

And the old woman said, "Well, you find out those secrets, and we'll

Jim: 00:13:22

keep working on our plan." Now, this follows for quite a while, and the

Jim: 00:13:29

cousin is just so anxious to get in there and just, ugh, so impatient.

Jim: 00:13:36

But the old woman says, "We've got to know everything."

Jim: 00:13:40

And finally, finally, finally, Lunja approaches the ghoula

Jim: 00:13:47

and says, "You know I love you.

Jim: 00:13:50

I'm your daughter.

Jim: 00:13:51

You care for me so much.

Jim: 00:13:54

But there are secrets that you have that you've never shared with me.

Jim: 00:13:57

You don't trust me.

Jim: 00:14:00

You know I love you.

Jim: 00:14:02

Tell me.

Jim: 00:14:03

Tell me."

Jim: 00:14:06

And so the ghoula opened her heart and she started telling her secrets.

Jim: 00:14:13

Day followed day, and finally Lunja said, "You know, you've told me so much,

Jim: 00:14:18

and I love you so much, but not that I would ever do this, but how would

Jim: 00:14:26

I escape if you would let me escape?"

Jim: 00:14:32

Now the ghoula was no fool and she knew what was happening.

Jim: 00:14:40

But she answered her questions and she said, "Well, if you were ever to try to

Jim: 00:14:46

escape, I would of course follow you.

Jim: 00:14:50

I would ask you a question.

Jim: 00:14:52

I would ask you a question about how you eat.

Jim: 00:14:57

I would ask you a question about how your horse would eat because you'd

Jim: 00:15:03

have to be on a horse to escape me."

Jim: 00:15:06

And she whispered the answers into Lunja's ears.

Jim: 00:15:10

The next morning, when the ghoula left and the old woman came, she told

Jim: 00:15:16

her everything and they set the plan.

Jim: 00:15:20

Her cousin arrived the next morning , with his greyhound and his horse.

Jim: 00:15:27

She leapt onto the back of the horse and they started to race off.

Jim: 00:15:33

And of course, the ghoula knew this was gonna happen.

Jim: 00:15:37

And so as soon as they take off, the ghoula is there chasing

Jim: 00:15:40

them, and she calls out, "Stop.

Jim: 00:15:44

Stop.

Jim: 00:15:44

You're going so fast.

Jim: 00:15:46

How is it you go so fast?

Jim: 00:15:48

What do you eat that you not get tired?" And Lunja turned around

Jim: 00:15:54

and called out the answers she had been given, "Wood and grass."

Jim: 00:15:59

And so the ghoula stopped, and she started eating wood and eating grass, and it

Jim: 00:16:04

made her heavy and it slowed her down.

Jim: 00:16:06

But in the meantime, Lunja and her cousin kept riding on the horse.

Jim: 00:16:13

And they got further away, and the ghoula started to catch up again, and

Jim: 00:16:17

she called out, "What is it that your horse eats that he can run so fast?"

Jim: 00:16:22

And Lunja turned back and said, "He eats his knees."

Jim: 00:16:30

And the ghoula stopped and started eating her own knees.

Jim: 00:16:36

And of course, she couldn't run then.

Jim: 00:16:39

And she called out, "Lunja, Lunja, my daughter, please come

Jim: 00:16:42

back." But Lunja kept riding.

Jim: 00:16:47

And so she called out one more time, "You're gonna come across

Jim: 00:16:51

two roads, one red and one white.

Jim: 00:16:54

Follow the red one.

Jim: 00:16:57

You'll come across two springs, one clean and one muddy.

Jim: 00:17:00

Drink from the muddy one.

Jim: 00:17:02

And if you do it wrong, you're gonna come across a huge white

Jim: 00:17:07

bird, and he'll offer you food.

Jim: 00:17:12

But when he does, make sure you let some of it drop in your lap."

Jim: 00:17:18

When you've finished, he'll ask you to give him back what you ate."

Jim: 00:17:26

And with that, the two of them left the ghoula far behind.

Jim: 00:17:32

And of course, you know what happens.

Jim: 00:17:35

They come to the two roads, one red and one white.

Jim: 00:17:39

She's supposed to follow the red one, but the, the sultan's son

Jim: 00:17:44

says, "Oh, we can't trust her.

Jim: 00:17:46

We'll follow the white one." And they come across two springs,

Jim: 00:17:51

one clean and one muddy, and he says, "Why would we trust her?

Jim: 00:17:54

We'll drink from the clean one."

Jim: 00:17:58

And because they broke what she told her, they came across this big bird.

Jim: 00:18:04

And the bird says, "Here, let me give you some food." And the young prince

Jim: 00:18:14

didn't do as he was told, but she did.

Jim: 00:18:17

And so when they finished their meal, the bird asked for his food back,

Jim: 00:18:21

she gave him what was in his lap.

Jim: 00:18:25

But the prince had nothing to give her.

Jim: 00:18:29

So what would a bird do in those circumstances?

Jim: 00:18:33

She ate the prince and his horse, and she let Lunja continue on her own.

Jim: 00:18:43

So Lunja and the greyhound start to make their way back to the sultan's palace.

Jim: 00:18:50

The greyhound, of course, knew its way.

Jim: 00:18:53

And as they're getting close to the palace, Lunja takes her knife and

Jim: 00:19:00

she slits open the greyhound and skins him, and wraps herself in the

Jim: 00:19:07

greyhound's skin, and approaches

Jim: 00:19:13

the sultan's palace as if she were a greyhound.

Jim: 00:19:16

And as the sultan comes up and sees his son's greyhound and knows something

Jim: 00:19:24

terrible must have befallen him because the greyhound wouldn't come

Jim: 00:19:28

without him if he was still alive.

Jim: 00:19:32

And so he weeps and he puts the greyhound outside the castle.

Jim: 00:19:43

And, you know, gives it some mediocre food, doesn't really

Jim: 00:19:48

give it a place to play 'cause his, his, his heart is so broken.

Jim: 00:19:55

Well, the next morning, the bird comes flying back and its belly is huge 'cause

Jim: 00:20:03

it has the prince and the horse inside it.

Jim: 00:20:08

And he's inside the bird, and he calls out, "Lunja, Lunja."

Jim: 00:20:17

She says, "Yes, cousin."

Jim: 00:20:21

"What are you eating?"

Jim: 00:20:23

"Bran and water."

Jim: 00:20:26

"Where are you sleeping?"

Jim: 00:20:28

"Outside."

Jim: 00:20:30

"Oh, I curse my parents who treat you like a dog." Of course

Jim: 00:20:35

they treat her like a dog.

Jim: 00:20:36

She looks like a dog.

Jim: 00:20:38

But he, the bird, keeps coming back and asking this-- he asks the same

Jim: 00:20:43

questions until finally a guard overhears.

Jim: 00:20:48

And you know what?

Jim: 00:20:51

He passes it on to the sultan.

Jim: 00:20:55

And the sultan realizes that maybe there's a chance of saving his son.

Jim: 00:21:02

And so he brings Lunja into the castle, still looking like a dog, but gives Lunja

Jim: 00:21:09

the prince's bedroom, brings tremendous meals in, and the bird flies the next day.

Jim: 00:21:19

The prince asks again, and she tells him, "I've slept in your

Jim: 00:21:24

bed. I've had the best meals."

Jim: 00:21:27

And the prince says, "Finally, finally, finally."

Jim: 00:21:32

To make a long story short,

Jim: 00:21:38

Lunja slices open the bird.

Jim: 00:21:42

The prince emerges, and when the sultan and his mother come back the next day,

Jim: 00:21:49

they see Lunja and the prince together.

Jim: 00:21:56

And you know what?

Jim: 00:21:58

I think they had a good life.

Maria: 00:22:03

Ah, Jim.

Maria: 00:22:06

I loved that story.

Maria: 00:22:09

I love the really ancient stories that take their unwinding time,

Maria: 00:22:15

and go to great depths, and have so much to chew on, because there

Maria: 00:22:21

was many little stories inside the big story, like the Russian dolls.

Maria: 00:22:27

Oh, I loved it so much.

Maria: 00:22:29

And it reminded me of another epic, so I'm going to give

Maria: 00:22:33

you the helicopter view of it.

Maria: 00:22:35

But to tell the epic would take a week, you know, and maybe

Maria: 00:22:41

it could be done sometime,

Jim: 00:22:42

Well, and, and before you start, I will say that's about half the story.

Maria: 00:22:47

That's about half the story.

Jim: 00:22:48

Yeah, yeah.

Jim: 00:22:49

Yeah.

Jim: 00:22:49

Yeah.

Jim: 00:22:49

There's, there's

Maria: 00:22:50

much more.

Maria: 00:22:50

You know, and there's two versions.

Jim: 00:22:52

And there's two versions then.

Maria: 00:22:53

And it traveled to, and it travels, so therefore there is meat and potato

Maria: 00:22:58

in, in it when it travels, you know?

Maria: 00:23:01

When merchants and, you know, the travelers brought the stories with them,

Maria: 00:23:06

it was because it hit something in them.

Jim: 00:23:08

Yeah.

Maria: 00:23:09

Hit a heart, you know, hit their soul.

Maria: 00:23:12

It made their mind work, and I think this story does all three.

Maria: 00:23:17

It's a really chewy story.

Jim: 00:23:18

It's a very chewy story.

Jim: 00:23:20

It's lovely.

Jim: 00:23:21

And I'll say the other version was brought, as best

Jim: 00:23:25

we can figure, it ended up-

Maria: 00:23:27

Mm-hmm

Maria: 00:23:27

… Jim: in a Jewish community in Eastern Europe.

Maria: 00:23:30

Yeah.

Jim: 00:23:31

From the mountains of Morocco.

Maria: 00:23:33

Exactly.

Maria: 00:23:34

And you can imagine when those stories were being told, there was no tech.

Maria: 00:23:40

So people would've been squashing in and listening in, and discussing this.

Maria: 00:23:45

You know?

Maria: 00:23:46

And it would be… Like I know that, that, um, you're hoping

Maria: 00:23:50

a bit of that will come back.

Maria: 00:23:52

You know, the, the wanting to chew it and discuss it- and you know, because

Maria: 00:23:57

there's nourishment in a story like that, that can be missing in a lot of the soap

Maria: 00:24:03

operas, for example- Yes … you know, um, which are kind of- regurgitating.

Jim: 00:24:08

I also think there are parts of this story, as are

Jim: 00:24:11

to so many of the old stories-

Maria: 00:24:14

Yeah

Jim: 00:24:15

that sound so strange and almost unpalatable.

Jim: 00:24:21

I mean- to slit open the greyhound- Yeah … and to take on its shape.

Jim: 00:24:26

It's clear that that's important, and that there's some shape-shifting going on.

Jim: 00:24:31

There's all this stuff.

Jim: 00:24:32

Yeah.

Maria: 00:24:32

And why it's important is actually-

Jim: 00:24:33

But it, it happens in a way that our people are not comfortable with.

Maria: 00:24:40

Yes.

Jim: 00:24:40

You know, you have to kind of sink into the story-

Maria: 00:24:43

When I'm talking to the kids about where their food comes from, you

Maria: 00:24:48

know, we're totally divorced from where our food comes from in this day and age.

Maria: 00:24:53

So it, it even links in with those kind of questions that we're

Maria: 00:24:57

asking ourselves in the modern day.

Maria: 00:24:59

You know?

Maria: 00:25:00

And as you were telling, the red threads that were coming out- … and

Maria: 00:25:04

weaving themselves around me, Jim, were numerous and varied.

Maria: 00:25:09

But one of the stories that came to me, another epic like this, so we, we

Maria: 00:25:15

look a little bit at the helicopter view of it at the moment, but it ta- it

Maria: 00:25:19

takes place in Tory Island in Armagh, in Colin Irwin's country, so very,

Maria: 00:25:26

very near to him, this Island of Tory.

Maria: 00:25:29

This story is 3,000 years old, and it talks about how human

Maria: 00:25:35

beings came to take over from the, from the Sidhe, from those ones.

Maria: 00:25:41

So it was the big, massive battle between the Fomorians and the Tuatha Dé Danann.

Maria: 00:25:46

So it speaks to all of that.

Maria: 00:25:50

And each, each part of this I have heard as a story.

Maria: 00:25:56

So I'm going to weave them all together now into one story, but I would encourage

Maria: 00:26:01

everybody to dig a little bit deeper into the Irish folklore, uh, annals and e- and

Maria: 00:26:08

explore each story bit by bit, you know?

Maria: 00:26:13

So, there was a king, and the king would be made a king by the Stone of Tara.

Maria: 00:26:22

The stone would cry out the name of the king.

Maria: 00:26:25

The king had to be absolutely beautiful in his physicality, so there was no

Maria: 00:26:31

way that he was allowed to have one limb or missing fingers or a nose that

Maria: 00:26:36

was crooked or anything like that.

Maria: 00:26:38

So he had to be a, a highly beautiful, perfectly intact physical specimen.

Maria: 00:26:45

So you can imagine in a warrior nation, that was difficult

Maria: 00:26:48

enough to come across, you know?

Maria: 00:26:51

And then there was the druids: the druids who could use the plants

Maria: 00:26:57

all around for good or evil.

Maria: 00:27:01

So you had the dark druids, and you had the druids of the white, you know?

Maria: 00:27:06

And one of the child druids came into the court one day and gave this

Maria: 00:27:12

horrendous prophecy that the child of the king, whose name was Balor, that

Maria: 00:27:19

he was going to be killed by his own son, by the grandson of the now king.

Maria: 00:27:25

And Balor was not happy about this at all, and he tried to find out, you know,

Maria: 00:27:30

kind of what he could do about this.

Maria: 00:27:33

So he went up to the forbidden round tower of the druids.

Maria: 00:27:39

The reason they forbade people to come was for their own good, and the reason they

Maria: 00:27:44

told terrifying stories was so that the stories would be a guard around the tower

Maria: 00:27:50

to keep the children out, but not Balor.

Maria: 00:27:54

And this day, a number of druids were experimenting behind big stones, and

Maria: 00:28:00

the concoctions that they made, they leaked these noxious steams and smokes of

Maria: 00:28:08

every dark color that you could imagine.

Maria: 00:28:11

And Balor walked in with his eyes open, and they affected his

Maria: 00:28:15

eyes, and he started to scream.

Maria: 00:28:19

And he came outside, and the druids did their best, but his

Maria: 00:28:23

eyes had transformed into but one eye in the middle of his forehead.

Maria: 00:28:29

And as he grew, the eye grew bigger.

Maria: 00:28:33

And as he grew, he grew three times, four times, five times the size of a normal

Maria: 00:28:39

man because the smoke and the steam from the druids' concoctions had made their

Maria: 00:28:46

way into the molecules of his body.

Maria: 00:28:50

And when he opened that eye, and he cast his eye upon you, the first thing that

Maria: 00:28:56

happened was you were turned to stone.

Maria: 00:28:59

But as he grew in powers, what would happen is you would turn into stone,

Maria: 00:29:04

and then you would begin to fold down and down until you exploded, until

Maria: 00:29:10

there was blood and guts everywhere.

Maria: 00:29:14

And all the time, he couldn't stop thinking about this horrible prophecy

Maria: 00:29:20

that his own child would kill him, and he decided he'd never fall in love.

Maria: 00:29:26

But you can decide what you want, and your heart will go out and find its own way.

Maria: 00:29:32

And he found a woman that he loved, and he took her to an island,

Maria: 00:29:37

and there they had many children.

Maria: 00:29:39

And the most beautiful of those children, a girl, was called Ethne.

Maria: 00:29:46

She was so beautiful, with a voice so tinkly, that when you came into her

Maria: 00:29:51

presence, you thought that you were in the presence of the Sidhe themselves,

Maria: 00:29:57

and of the highest echelon of the Sidhe.

Maria: 00:30:01

And he thought she will never know of men, so she walked with the maidens.

Maria: 00:30:06

And he kept her locked up in a tower, in a beautiful prison,

Maria: 00:30:14

preserving her innocence.

Maria: 00:30:17

And she knew nothing of men until the day that Cian came to be there.

Maria: 00:30:24

And the story how Cian came to Tory Island is so beautiful,

Maria: 00:30:30

but it belongs to another day.

Maria: 00:30:33

For now, just know he arrived there, and he was beautiful.

Maria: 00:30:39

And he used the gifts of the Fianna to ghost his way to this big, round tower.

Maria: 00:30:47

And he peeked in the window and he saw a woman playing a harp

Maria: 00:30:52

with the most beautiful voice he had ever heard in all his life.

Maria: 00:30:58

Ethne, what a beautiful name.

Maria: 00:31:01

Ethne.

Maria: 00:31:03

And he climbed in the window, and nature had its way, and soon she was with child,

Maria: 00:31:11

and she did not know what was happening because she had been kept so innocent.

Maria: 00:31:16

And the handmaiden said, "Oh, you are to give birth." And they put their

Maria: 00:31:22

hands on her belly and they said, "Oh, and we will have to hide you from

Maria: 00:31:26

your father, for it is not one child you will give birth to, but three."

Maria: 00:31:32

And when the time came, the roars of labor could be heard all the way down

Maria: 00:31:40

the country of Ireland, as far as Cork.

Maria: 00:31:44

And Balor woke to the idea that his daughter was having babies.

Maria: 00:31:51

He sent his armies, and he followed, lumbering along.

Maria: 00:31:56

It now took four men with a special rod to push up the lid of his horrible eye.

Maria: 00:32:06

Ethne begged Cian to leave with the babies, to save her children.

Maria: 00:32:12

So he put them into the bottom of a currach, and he headed for the water.

Maria: 00:32:19

And while he was on the river, two of those babies were

Maria: 00:32:24

killed, but one survived.

Maria: 00:32:29

One survived that was half god, half human, for Cian was human, and

Maria: 00:32:36

Ethne, the daughter of Balor, a god.

Maria: 00:32:41

A god from the Tuatha Dé Danann.

Maria: 00:32:44

And so he went to be minded by Mannanon Mac Lir, god of the sea.

Maria: 00:32:53

And Goibniú, who was the great blacksmith god, and Credne, and

Maria: 00:33:00

Dian Cecht, who was the fantastic druid that could heal anybody.

Maria: 00:33:07

And they planned the battle and how they would get their revenge on Balor.

Maria: 00:33:15

And when Lugh came of age, so beautiful like his mother, so strong

Maria: 00:33:22

and wily like his father, it took him seven years to make the plans.

Maria: 00:33:29

Seven years to see how they could make people well after they had been

Maria: 00:33:35

struck down by the eye of Balor, to see how they might take Balor down.

Maria: 00:33:43

And the day came, and father and grandson, who had never, ever

Maria: 00:33:48

met because of the pride of the grandfather, came into battle.

Maria: 00:33:55

One, a hulking, huge character.

Maria: 00:33:59

The other, on the precipice of manhood.

Maria: 00:34:03

And he managed to cast a stone into Balor's eye and fulfill the prophecy.

Maria: 00:34:13

Sin é mo scéal.

Maria: 00:34:15

That is my story.

Maria: 00:34:16

And I'm conscious that there are so many stories within the story just

Maria: 00:34:21

like yours, which is where the red thread of story brought us today.

Jim: 00:34:26

Hmm.

Jim: 00:34:27

Hmm.

Jim: 00:34:28

Hmm

Jim: 00:34:31

And so many echoes of stories from other people in there- Yeah … as well.

Maria: 00:34:37

Absolutely.

Maria: 00:34:37

Yeah.

Jim: 00:34:39

Yeah.

Maria: 00:34:40

Yeah.

Jim: 00:34:41

Oh!

Maria: 00:34:44

And intricate, you know?

Maria: 00:34:46

Yes.

Maria: 00:34:46

So- Yeah

Maria: 00:34:47

Imagine that those stories would've been told orally and received aurally

Maria: 00:34:53

… and yet they survived, you know?

Maria: 00:34:58

It's amazing

Jim: 00:34:59

Which only happens when the stories have substance.

Maria: 00:35:03

Yes.

Maria: 00:35:04

Very true.

Jim: 00:35:05

The recollection of where I went to have breakfast yesterday will pass.

Maria: 00:35:13

Yeah.

Jim: 00:35:14

But these sorts of stories… I'm thinking a story doesn't have

Jim: 00:35:20

to be epic to have substance.

Maria: 00:35:23

That's true.

Jim: 00:35:23

But it has to have substance if it's an epic to survive.

Maria: 00:35:27

That's it.

Jim: 00:35:28

I think of this short story, and I'll just really quickly share it,

Jim: 00:35:33

that you might think, "Why would this survive?" And this is the story, and

Jim: 00:35:40

I've told it so many different ways.

Jim: 00:35:42

I hope I haven't already told it here.

Jim: 00:35:44

I don't think so.

Jim: 00:35:45

This is a story of Chelm, which is the wise fools.

Jim: 00:35:49

One of the fellows is awakened in the middle of the night in this small

Jim: 00:35:53

village with the sounds of great bells being clanged and people shouting,

Jim: 00:35:58

and he doesn't know what's going on.

Jim: 00:36:01

And he wakes up enough and he finally realizes there's a fire

Jim: 00:36:05

in the middle of the night.

Jim: 00:36:07

So he does what everybody else in the village is doing.

Jim: 00:36:10

He runs out and he grabs a bucket and he runs to the well, and he carries

Jim: 00:36:13

it to the building that's on fire.

Jim: 00:36:18

Let's say it's a library.

Jim: 00:36:21

As he's throwing his water on the fire, the library fire, he

Jim: 00:36:25

says to the fellow next to him, "Thank God the library's on fire."

Jim: 00:36:32

And his neighbor says, "What are you talking about?"

Jim: 00:36:35

He says, "Well, it's the middle of the night. If it wasn't for the fire,

Jim: 00:36:39

we couldn't see what we were doing."

Jim: 00:36:46

And, you know, this, you would think this is just a silly little story.

Jim: 00:36:50

Why would it persist?

Maria: 00:36:52

Yeah.

Jim: 00:36:53

I've learned about this and other stories that there's

Jim: 00:36:57

a really deep truth in there.

Jim: 00:37:00

That in the midst of the fires in our lives, there's some light being shed.

Maria: 00:37:07

Mm-hmm.

Jim: 00:37:07

And it's not that we want to set the library on fire every

Jim: 00:37:11

night so we can find our way.

Jim: 00:37:14

But when it does catch on fire, let's not forget-

Maria: 00:37:17

There is light

Maria: 00:37:18

… Jim: the light that it gives off.

Maria: 00:37:18

Yeah.

Maria: 00:37:19

Um.

Maria: 00:37:20

And you've just described perspective, you know?

Maria: 00:37:24

Yes.

Maria: 00:37:24

And I absolutely love the work that you do in the workshops to make us

Maria: 00:37:30

conscious of perspective, of near and far.

Maria: 00:37:35

And I cannot wait to get involved in this, uh, in these beautiful

Maria: 00:37:41

workshops that you're going to deliver.

Maria: 00:37:43

Um, because there is something, you know, I, I, I had many resonances with, with the

Maria: 00:37:50

story and with- Mm-hmm … what, and with what you've said, and especially with the

Maria: 00:37:55

second story that made me laugh so much.

Maria: 00:37:57

But also has wisdom in it.

Maria: 00:37:59

Uh, and it would be easy for me to say, "Well," but it's more

Maria: 00:38:04

difficult to go, "I sit with that."

Maria: 00:38:06

Yeah.

Maria: 00:38:06

Yeah.

Maria: 00:38:07

I sit with that, and I'll sit with other people in a little group- and

Maria: 00:38:13

we'll see what shakes out, you know?

Maria: 00:38:16

And that in itself is a listening discipline, you know?

Maria: 00:38:19

And they often say, "Two of these," pointing to the ears, "and one

Maria: 00:38:24

of these," pointing to the mouth.

Maria: 00:38:27

So one of the really lovely things that I love about this story that you're

Maria: 00:38:31

about to deliver us again, with different perspective and a different magnifying

Maria: 00:38:38

glass on it, one of the things I really love about it is how it shape-shifts

Maria: 00:38:44

your own perception in the world.

Maria: 00:38:48

And you know and I know, that in our own personal stories, that led us out of

Maria: 00:38:55

the corporate and- secure, money-wise

Maria: 00:39:01

field into this beautiful work.

Jim: 00:39:04

Yeah.

Jim: 00:39:05

Well, and I do wanna just say a word about how I do these now, because I, I've been

Jim: 00:39:10

doing- this kind of work for a long time.

Jim: 00:39:13

But what I've settled on, which really seems to work well, is,

Jim: 00:39:18

I don't do workshops per se.

Jim: 00:39:21

I do seminars.

Jim: 00:39:22

So what that means is that we all come in as- not only learners but teachers.

Maria: 00:39:31

Yeah.

Jim: 00:39:31

We all are bringing our own wisdom even if we don't know what it is at

Jim: 00:39:35

the moment as we walk through the door.

Maria: 00:39:37

And also embracing our own innocence.

Maria: 00:39:40

So-

Jim: 00:39:41

Yes

Jim: 00:39:41

… Maria: like, you know, the wisdom of the fool.

Jim: 00:39:44

Yes, yes.

Maria: 00:39:44

As displayed in that last story.

Jim: 00:39:46

Yes.

Maria: 00:39:47

Yeah.

Jim: 00:39:47

We meet every other week instead of every week-

Maria: 00:39:51

Yeah

Maria: 00:39:52

… Jim: so that people have a chance to sit with the story and digest

Maria: 00:39:55

it- and see what blossoms from it.

Maria: 00:39:58

Yeah.

Jim: 00:39:58

So it's four weeks.

Jim: 00:39:59

It starts on July 1st.

Jim: 00:40:02

And,

Maria: 00:40:03

um- July 1st.

Jim: 00:40:03

Yeah.

Maria: 00:40:04

In the height of the summer.

Jim: 00:40:06

And you'll be able to learn more at my Healing Monsters Substack, so.

Maria: 00:40:12

Healing Monsters Substack.

Maria: 00:40:13

Yeah.

Maria: 00:40:13

And do you have a website?

Jim: 00:40:15

Yeah, healingmonsters.substack.com and the link will be

Jim: 00:40:19

in the show notes, so.

Maria: 00:40:20

Fantastic.

Jim: 00:40:21

Yeah.

Maria: 00:40:22

Aye.

Maria: 00:40:23

I'll see you there, Jim, on the Story Road.

Jim: 00:40:27

Again, a real pleasure.

Jim: 00:40:29

Not to say that it isn't a pleasure to bring in other voices, 'cause it is.

Maria: 00:40:34

Yeah.

Jim: 00:40:34

But it's also nice to have this time where we can just chat with each

Jim: 00:40:38

other and share stories with each other.

Jim: 00:40:41

I'm really have to say, though, now, in the strange world and timeline of

Jim: 00:40:47

podcasting, our listeners are gonna hear this before some of the other

Jim: 00:40:53

podcasts we've already recorded.

Jim: 00:40:56

And we, you will hear from Paddy Doyle in the not too distant future,

Jim: 00:41:02

about an effort that's he's part of underway to just gather people

Jim: 00:41:07

together and share stories informally, you know, without having big

Jim: 00:41:13

performances or venues, but house to house, living room to living room.

Maria: 00:41:17

Yeah.

Jim: 00:41:17

Neighborhood to neighborhood to share stories, and that's-

Maria: 00:41:20

Yeah … that's part

Jim: 00:41:20

of what our podcast will be.

Maria: 00:41:20

And that's part of my legacy as well.

Maria: 00:41:22

That's why I'm called Story From Seeds.

Jim: 00:41:25

Right.

Jim: 00:41:25

Yeah.

Maria: 00:41:25

Because, uh, a little seed can grow into a very big tree.

Jim: 00:41:29

Yes.

Maria: 00:41:30

Yeah.

Jim: 00:41:30

And with many other, um, offshoots.

Maria: 00:41:37

Yeah.

Maria: 00:41:38

Will we say goodbye from Cork?

Jim: 00:41:40

Goodbye from New York, but only for a while, because we'll be

Jim: 00:41:44

back again with another episode.

Jim: 00:41:47

Absolutely.

Maria: 00:41:48

We can't wait to see you on The Story Road one more time, and from this

Maria: 00:41:53

time till that, be safe on The Story Road.