Mirror Worlds, Midnight Trains, and the Silent Hand of Grace

Maria: 00:00:23

Hello from Cork

Jim: 00:00:24

Hello from New York

Maria: 00:00:25

Is mise Máire, Seanchai Chorcaí.

Maria: 00:00:28

It's Maria, the Cork-based storyteller

Jim: 00:00:31

It's me, Jim, here in Fayetteville, New York

Maria: 00:00:33

We can't wait to tell you a few stories.

Jim: 00:00:43

So welcome everyone to this episode of From Cork to New York.

Jim: 00:00:48

As you know, we started off just Cork to New York, and now we've spread our wings

Jim: 00:00:55

and we're bringing in storytellers from around the world, and it's just a delight.

Jim: 00:01:01

Today, we have Denise Paige with us, and it's a, a real joy to be able to bring

Jim: 00:01:08

her to you, all of you, and to let her, share her story and her life with you all.

Jim: 00:01:14

So, Denise, welcome.

Jim: 00:01:18

I'm gonna start us off today.

Jim: 00:01:20

So I've had this interesting encounter with a story that led me to another

Jim: 00:01:26

story, the way this world works.

Jim: 00:01:29

But some time ago, we told a story, Maria told a story about a midwife in Cork.

Jim: 00:01:38

And of course, that reminded me of a story that I knew about a midwife in Dakar.

Jim: 00:01:45

Recently I started researching stories from another part of the

Jim: 00:01:50

world, and I was looking at the Kven people, which are the, some of the

Jim: 00:01:57

indigenous people of northern Finland.

Jim: 00:02:02

And what do you know?

Jim: 00:02:04

They have the story, too.

Jim: 00:02:06

They have a story about a woman who travels under the ground to the mirror

Jim: 00:02:14

world, and they have a mirror world.

Jim: 00:02:17

And she travels under there to be a midwife, and it's the same

Jim: 00:02:20

story from that point forward.

Jim: 00:02:22

But that just tickled me to no end to, to find that story in yet another place.

Jim: 00:02:28

But that's all been part of a bigger exploration, which has led

Jim: 00:02:32

me to North Africa, of course.

Jim: 00:02:34

Where else would you go from Finland but to North Africa?

Jim: 00:02:37

And, this is a story from the Kabyle people, and it's a story about a young

Jim: 00:02:46

man who was just a remarkable metalsmith.

Jim: 00:02:53

Now, at that time, and for those people, metalsmithing was kind of

Jim: 00:02:58

the most important thing you could do because you could make swords with

Jim: 00:03:04

metal, and they were people who had to defend themselves all the time.

Jim: 00:03:09

So this one smith, he could make the best swords, and it was really…

Jim: 00:03:16

He was treasured by the community.

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He didn't like making swords, so he was glad when the battles would

Jim: 00:03:26

subside and their need would die down because he would make plows.

Jim: 00:03:30

He made plowshares.

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And you would think that that was his true love.

Jim: 00:03:38

But his real true love was in singing.

Jim: 00:03:43

And he would sing of places, he would sing of flowers, he would sing of healing.

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He just loved to sing, and he was good.

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People loved his songs, and not just because he had a good voice, but because

Jim: 00:04:03

when he sang, he took you to where he was singing about, just like in stories.

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And the favorite song that his community loved was his song

Jim: 00:04:18

about the Valley of Paradise.

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And this was a song that could go on for hours and hours, and he would sing

Jim: 00:04:28

about the beauty of this place and the birds that lived there and the streams

Jim: 00:04:33

that ran through it, and he would just go on and on, and everyone who

Jim: 00:04:39

listened was transported by this song.

Jim: 00:04:43

Now, he wouldn't always sing it.

Jim: 00:04:45

Sometimes people would say, "Come and sing us the story of the Valley of Paradise."

Jim: 00:04:50

He would say, "No, I, I, I can't go there right now." But usually he would.

Jim: 00:04:58

Now, this young smith also had a great love for this woman

Jim: 00:05:04

who lived in the village.

Jim: 00:05:06

He was very attracted to her.

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She was sweet, she was pleasant to look at, she knew how to move,

Jim: 00:05:14

and he really did hope that he would be able to win her hand.

Jim: 00:05:19

But someone as wonderful as that had more than one suitor, of course.

Jim: 00:05:26

And there was another fellow who was a merchant, and he knew that the smith

Jim: 00:05:33

was gonna win because of his singing.

Jim: 00:05:37

And so he started sowing seeds of doubt in the young woman's mind.

Jim: 00:05:43

He said, " This smith, he keeps telling stories about this Valley of Paradise,

Jim: 00:05:50

but I don't think they're true.

Jim: 00:05:53

I think he's making it all up." And the seed of doubt got sown,

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and so she went up to him and she said, " these songs you sing of the

Jim: 00:06:06

Valley of Paradise, i- is it real?"

Jim: 00:06:10

And he paused for a moment and he said, "As real as real can be."

Jim: 00:06:17

Well, that didn't satisfy her, and she kept pressing.

Jim: 00:06:20

And, and, and finally, the merchant arrived, seeing what was going on,

Jim: 00:06:26

knowing he had the opportunity.

Jim: 00:06:28

He said, "If it's real, why don't you go there and bring us back proof?"

Jim: 00:06:38

And the smith said, "Oh, it doesn't work that way."

Jim: 00:06:44

And the merchant turned to the woman and said, "You see? You

Jim: 00:06:48

can't trust him. How can you marry someone that you can't trust?"

Jim: 00:06:56

And the smith, well, he saw what was happening.

Jim: 00:07:00

And so he gathered his belongings together and he said, "I will go and I will bring

Jim: 00:07:06

back proof." And with that, he headed out.

Jim: 00:07:12

Now, the land of the Kabyle is full of rugged mountains.

Jim: 00:07:16

It's very difficult terrain.

Jim: 00:07:18

And so he started climbing mountains and scaling down valleys and crossing

Jim: 00:07:24

dangerous rivers, and he went on for day after day after week after week.

Jim: 00:07:32

More than once, he came close to losing his life.

Jim: 00:07:36

But finally, he reached the Valley.

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And words can't quite describe what he found there.

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Much time went by until he finally returned to the village.

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But when he returned to the village, he had aged.

Jim: 00:08:05

No one else had, but he had aged like you wouldn't believe.

Jim: 00:08:11

He was bent over, his hair was long and scraggly, his clothes were torn.

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He walked with a cane.

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In fact, the first person to recognize him was the merchant.

Jim: 00:08:28

Everybody thought he was just some, you know, itinerant moving through.

Jim: 00:08:35

And he called out to him, "Smith, Smith, did you find the Valley?"

Jim: 00:08:43

And people gathered around, including the young woman.

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And he said, "Yes, I did," but everyone could see that he was broken.

Jim: 00:08:56

He said, "Was it not what you expected?"

Jim: 00:09:01

He said, "Well,

Jim: 00:09:05

when I got there, it was beautiful.

Jim: 00:09:09

Even more beautiful than I could sing about.

Jim: 00:09:12

And everyone there was just like us."

Jim: 00:09:19

And people said, "What do you mean just like us?

Jim: 00:09:22

You mean they were people like us, not something else?" He said,

Jim: 00:09:26

"No, they were just like me.

Jim: 00:09:30

They were just like you.

Jim: 00:09:32

Every one of us in this village was in that valley.

Jim: 00:09:38

And I thought, how strange that there should be these reflections

Jim: 00:09:44

of us in this beautiful valley!

Jim: 00:09:50

And then I understood:

Jim: 00:09:54

They weren't reflections of me.

Jim: 00:09:57

I was a reflection of them.

Jim: 00:10:02

It's not they who are the illusion, it's me, it's us."

Jim: 00:10:11

At that, everybody just looked at him and laughed.

Jim: 00:10:18

And in that moment, the young woman decided she indeed

Jim: 00:10:22

would marry the merchant.

Jim: 00:10:26

Within a few days, the smith had withered and died.

Jim: 00:10:35

And not long after that, anyone who had heard the story from

Jim: 00:10:41

his lips also withered and died.

Jim: 00:10:50

Because what they failed to realize was not that they were an illusion,

Jim: 00:10:59

but that we all have many, many more lives than we could ever realize.

Jim: 00:11:07

And the path we choose to follow should be one that takes us

Jim: 00:11:13

to where we truly want to go.

Jim: 00:11:18

And that's my story from the Kabyle people.

Multiple speakers: 00:11:25

That's lovely, Jim.

Multiple speakers: 00:11:28

Oh.

Multiple speakers: 00:11:29

So much wisdom, you know?

Multiple speakers: 00:11:31

That's insane.

Multiple speakers: 00:11:33

Yeah.

Multiple speakers: 00:11:33

A lot in that story to unpack.

Multiple speakers: 00:11:36

Yeah.

Multiple speakers: 00:11:37

There is, and I'd been wrestling with it because- Mm … I

Multiple speakers: 00:11:41

didn't like it to begin with.

Multiple speakers: 00:11:44

Mm. You know, I, I didn't like the everyone withers who hears this.

Multiple speakers: 00:11:49

Yeah.

Multiple speakers: 00:11:49

Uh, um, but it's grown on me.

Multiple speakers: 00:11:55

It's grown on me.

Multiple speakers: 00:11:56

Mm, mm.

Denise: 00:11:57

It, it brought me back to, um- I guess I, I… Well, there was a period

Denise: 00:12:03

in my life where I spent a lot of time thinking about the three dimensions of

Denise: 00:12:07

time- Mm … and how we were existing in all three dimensions simultaneously.

Denise: 00:12:13

And one of my friends that I told a story about it, it, at, uh,

Denise: 00:12:15

Woodstock, she and I spent so much time with that and trying to prove it.

Denise: 00:12:19

And so this story, when he went there and he said they were us, I thought, oh.

Denise: 00:12:23

It, it brought me back to that.

Denise: 00:12:25

Mm. Mm. To that, uh-

Maria: 00:12:26

Yeah.

Maria: 00:12:27

Yeah.

Maria: 00:12:27

And there's something similar for me because, um, in the Irish

Maria: 00:12:32

tradition, we talk about the time outside time, you know?

Maria: 00:12:36

Mm. The time that could still be going on, you know?

Maria: 00:12:39

Mm-hmm.

Maria: 00:12:39

And I suppose we would have always known that time was circular, and

Maria: 00:12:43

it would've been- Mm … in the old carvings, the ancient ones, I mean, from-

Maria: 00:12:49

Mm … uh, Stonehenge, where you had the spirals and- Yeah … there's, uh,

Maria: 00:12:55

one spiral where there's three intersecting, and they call that, uh,

Maria: 00:12:59

you know, the, there's… People are just kind of surmising what does it mean,

Maria: 00:13:03

but one of the- Yeah the popular things that it's the life-death-life cycle.

Maria: 00:13:10

Mm-hmm.

Maria: 00:13:10

And how nothing is lost in that, you know, so.

Multiple speakers: 00:13:13

Right.

Multiple speakers: 00:13:13

Yeah.

Multiple speakers: 00:13:13

Right.

Multiple speakers: 00:13:15

Right.

Multiple speakers: 00:13:16

Yeah.

Multiple speakers: 00:13:16

Beautiful.

Multiple speakers: 00:13:22

Beautiful.

Multiple speakers: 00:13:22

A story to chew on.

Multiple speakers: 00:13:23

And I… Yeah, a story to chew on.

Multiple speakers: 00:13:23

And so, um, I'm wondering now- Denise, if that has lit something in you?

Denise: 00:13:30

I do wanna share.

Denise: 00:13:31

I'm not sure either one of you have heard this story.

Denise: 00:13:35

It is a story I tell a lot, and it is my, I call it my premier story with

Denise: 00:13:41

air quotes 'cause the first time I told it was at a community event, and we

Denise: 00:13:45

had index cards that you could keep.

Denise: 00:13:47

Oh.

Denise: 00:13:47

I'm not sure I actually used them, but I know I wouldn't have

Denise: 00:13:50

gotten through it without them.

Denise: 00:13:51

So, so

Denise: 00:13:55

anyway, so I consider it my launch story.

Denise: 00:13:58

And this story, this story, along with the person who asked, who s- didn't ask,

Denise: 00:14:05

she demanded that I be a storyteller.

Denise: 00:14:10

So between the person who demanded that and my need to tell this story,

Denise: 00:14:15

they, those are the two reasons that I became a storyteller, this story and

Denise: 00:14:19

the person that pushed me to do it.

Denise: 00:14:22

So with no- Love … further ado, uh,

Denise: 00:14:24

The story is Mariah, and, um, it's a story told to me by my mother about herself.

Denise: 00:14:37

When I was growing up, I heard so few stories about my mother.

Denise: 00:14:44

Hardly any stories about my mother at all as a child, and most of the

Denise: 00:14:50

stories that I did hear came from her.

Denise: 00:14:53

They were very, very few.

Denise: 00:14:55

I heard more stories from her when she was older in the years that she

Denise: 00:14:59

met my dad, but until then, they were so sparse, and I longed for them.

Denise: 00:15:06

I longed to know my mother as a little girl, to know more about her childhood,

Denise: 00:15:11

and I would beg her, "Please, Mommy, please tell me the story," that she told

Denise: 00:15:17

most often, the story called Mariah.

Denise: 00:15:21

And on this particular day that I'm going to share with you, she did tell me the

Denise: 00:15:25

story of Mariah, and she told me a second part that I had never heard before.

Denise: 00:15:31

At this point, I was about 13 or 14 years old, and I think she just

Denise: 00:15:35

thought maybe I was ready to hear it.

Denise: 00:15:38

And so very excitedly, because she had agreed to tell this story, I

Denise: 00:15:43

curled up in the big red reading chair, but also the listening chair,

Denise: 00:15:48

and waited expectantly for her story, and she began, my mother, Dorothy:

Denise: 00:15:57

Niecy, that's what she called me,

Denise: 00:16:00

Niecy.

Denise: 00:16:01

When I was a very little girl, I was seven years old actually, was seven

Denise: 00:16:06

years old, and it was 1927, and I would be tucked very tightly in a

Denise: 00:16:13

cot in a sparsely furnished room.

Denise: 00:16:17

The only light in the room came from the gas streetlights below, and across from

Denise: 00:16:22

me a few feet lay my recently widowed mother, also tucked tightly in a cot.

Denise: 00:16:32

You see, I know it was 1927 and I was seven years old because my

Denise: 00:16:36

dad had died just a few months before from tuberculosis, and now

Denise: 00:16:44

I was in the room where I came weekends only to be with my mom.

Denise: 00:16:51

I would be lying in this cot listening, listening desperately

Denise: 00:16:56

for sounds of life from her.

Denise: 00:16:59

Any sound of wheezing, gasping, but nothing but silence.

Denise: 00:17:05

"Mama, Mommy," I would cry out in my spirit, but I wouldn't say it out loud

Denise: 00:17:09

because, because I was afraid of no response, or really, what would I ask her?

Denise: 00:17:17

So I'd lie in bed, and I'd wait patiently, patiently for

Denise: 00:17:24

the coming of Midnight Mariah.

Denise: 00:17:27

Now, Midnight Mariah isn't what she was called.

Denise: 00:17:29

It was a train that came through New Haven on Saturday evenings about midnight

Denise: 00:17:35

every week, and Midnight Mariah is the name I gave her, and in my very

Denise: 00:17:40

young life, she had become one of the very few constants that remained.

Denise: 00:17:46

It was just sheer fear and daughterly love that kept me awake until midnight, and

Denise: 00:17:53

then, and then gently, before I saw her or heard her, there'd be this faint rocking

Denise: 00:18:00

in my cot, just ever so slightly swaying.

Denise: 00:18:04

And then, and then the big one-eyed light of Mariah would appear and

Denise: 00:18:08

light up the room momentarily.

Denise: 00:18:10

And then as she exited, she would lean on her horn, and I had heard the

Denise: 00:18:17

as she exited.

Denise: 00:18:21

But in that moment that there was light, I snuck a look at my mother, looking

Denise: 00:18:27

for the rise and fall of her chest, and then, and then gathering my courage,

Denise: 00:18:35

"Mommy? Mommy, did you hear her? Did you hear Aunt Mariah blow her big old horn?"

Denise: 00:18:44

And then after what seemed like an interminable silence, length

Denise: 00:18:48

of time, my mother would whisper, "Yes, Dorothy, I heard her.

Denise: 00:18:55

Now you get your rest.

Denise: 00:18:56

You'll need it for Sunday school tomorrow." Well, with that, with that

Denise: 00:19:02

comforted with the knowledge that God had spared me and my little sister, Edwina,

Denise: 00:19:07

your aunt, from being orphans at least for one more day, with that comfort, I

Denise: 00:19:14

turned to go to sleep, and, and when I closed my eyes, I would dream about the

Denise: 00:19:19

place that we would go when our family was healthy, when everyone was healthy.

Denise: 00:19:26

Well, I'm not sure it was dreaming.

Denise: 00:19:27

I- it might have been more like remembering, but anyway, it would

Denise: 00:19:31

be this place, it would be the place where the Queen Anne's lace and

Denise: 00:19:35

the blueberry bushes, they tumbled along the mountainside and spilled

Denise: 00:19:39

into the Connecticut River below.

Denise: 00:19:41

It was a place where the Victorian house sat high on the

Denise: 00:19:45

hill in Deep River, Connecticut.

Denise: 00:19:48

It was the home of my grandmother's sister and her husband, and when my

Denise: 00:19:54

parents had been healthy, in the summers and some weekends, we would go there

Denise: 00:19:59

as family and spend this time with them in this house that was full of wa-

Denise: 00:20:04

porcelain washbasins and down coverlets.

Denise: 00:20:07

It was filled with art and books and music and love and

Denise: 00:20:10

laughter, just like our house was.

Denise: 00:20:14

Our house in New Haven, where our family lived, that too was filled with books, my

Denise: 00:20:19

mother's great love, and art everywhere.

Denise: 00:20:22

The art was the work of my dad, and our house was abundant with

Denise: 00:20:26

love and laughter and good health.

Denise: 00:20:31

Well, I think on these evenings, on these weekends, I dreamt of the place in Deep

Denise: 00:20:36

River, not of our home in New Haven, because the last time I had been to Deep

Denise: 00:20:42

River, that house was still filled with all the abundance of life well-lived.

Denise: 00:20:49

But our house, our house had slowly been stripped by the illnesses that had come to

Denise: 00:20:55

visit, the tuberculosis that took my dad and the cancer that my mom was fighting.

Denise: 00:21:02

The books and the art were no longer a part of that home, and so

Denise: 00:21:07

dreaming of Deep River, dreaming of Deep River, it gave me a sense of

Denise: 00:21:12

comfort and, and hope for the future, remembering when life was well-lived.

Denise: 00:21:19

Well, Niecy, of course those weekend visits with my mom came to an end as

Denise: 00:21:25

she succumbed to the breast cancer.

Denise: 00:21:29

And with her passing, with her passing, your Auntie Edwina and I, overnight we

Denise: 00:21:35

had gone from the panache of being the daughters of Edwin Manning Yalie to

Denise: 00:21:41

the stigma of being wards of the state.

Denise: 00:21:45

And in 1927, you can believe that was a stigma.

Denise: 00:21:49

You see, when my dad was alive, my dad, he had an art studio

Denise: 00:21:53

on State Street in New Haven.

Denise: 00:21:54

You know State Street.

Denise: 00:21:55

He had an art studio there.

Denise: 00:21:57

And when I was a, a little girl, obviously, when I was a little

Denise: 00:22:00

girl he sometimes would take me there when he was healthy on the

Denise: 00:22:04

weekends and I would help him paint.

Denise: 00:22:07

You see, he was a sign painter, and as he was painting these signs and letting me

Denise: 00:22:12

help, he would say, "Now, Dorothy, I may have been a Yale School of Art student,

Denise: 00:22:20

but like most people with a fine arts degree, you gotta find something practical

Denise: 00:22:25

to do to earn a living. And folks always need themselves a good hand-painted sign."

Denise: 00:22:33

And this, Niecy, this is where he would also repeat, ugh, his oft-repeated mantra,

Denise: 00:22:41

"Now, you know, Dorothy, not everybody can afford to go to college, but it's a

Denise: 00:22:46

darn fool who doesn't get all the free education that's available to them" Well,

Denise: 00:22:53

when my parents were gone, remembering those words and knowing someone had told

Denise: 00:23:00

me that my dad had been able to squirrel a- away a little bit of money that the

Denise: 00:23:05

state wouldn't be able to touch, and that money was so that I and your aunt

Denise: 00:23:12

could go to college when the time came.

Denise: 00:23:14

The knowledge that there was a nest egg for me to do that, and the memory

Denise: 00:23:18

of those words, and the memory of our intact family with culture and art

Denise: 00:23:23

and music, that's what sustained me.

Denise: 00:23:26

That's what kept me holding onto my dignity, my sense of

Denise: 00:23:30

self, my sense of purpose.

Denise: 00:23:34

Usually, when my mother told me this story, it would stop here, and of course,

Denise: 00:23:40

my eyes would well with tears at the thought of living a life with no parents.

Denise: 00:23:46

But on this particular evening, she went further, and she started with what I call

Denise: 00:23:51

her only brag, and she brag- she bragged about this every time she referenced this.

Denise: 00:23:57

It started with, "In 1936, when I was 16 years old and starting

Denise: 00:24:04

teacher's college…" At 16 years old.

Denise: 00:24:08

You see, her only brag.

Denise: 00:24:11

"When I started teacher's college, with what was left of the money that

Denise: 00:24:16

my dad had left so that your aunt and I could go to college, and it wasn't

Denise: 00:24:21

really enough money to get me all the way through, and so I got a part-time

Denise: 00:24:25

job to supplement the cost of tuition.

Denise: 00:24:28

And I got this job, it was in the East Rock section of New Haven, and I worked

Denise: 00:24:32

as a weekend domestic and seamstress.

Denise: 00:24:37

And I really enjoyed this job.

Denise: 00:24:38

You know how much I love sewing, and it was a decent enough job, but there

Denise: 00:24:43

were two things that worried me.

Denise: 00:24:46

You see, the family, the mister and missus, they, they used to air

Denise: 00:24:51

their dirty laundry in front of me."

Denise: 00:24:54

Well, it was even worse than that.

Denise: 00:24:56

It wasn't like in front of me.

Denise: 00:24:57

It was almost like to me, like they couldn't wait for me to come so they

Denise: 00:25:02

can unload all the stuff that they wouldn't share in their social circle.

Denise: 00:25:07

You see, unburden, but still be able to wear the mask.

Denise: 00:25:12

This bothered me, 'cause it made me feel less than, and I wasn't

Denise: 00:25:16

interested in their dirty laundry.

Denise: 00:25:18

And the missus, the missus, when she would get tipsy, she would tell me even the

Denise: 00:25:23

most intimate details about her husband And her husband, well, when he was in his

Denise: 00:25:30

cups, and that was most nights after work, that's what she called it, he would leer

Denise: 00:25:37

at me in a way that made me feel unsafe.

Denise: 00:25:41

And so I knew it was time for me to find another job, a job that would give

Denise: 00:25:46

me the money to supplement my tuition, but would have a schedule that it

Denise: 00:25:49

would allow me to keep going to school.

Denise: 00:25:52

And so this one particular day, I'm walking along Ashford Street.

Denise: 00:25:56

Now, I have to tell you, I don't know why I was on Ashford Street in DC.

Denise: 00:26:01

It was way on the opposite side of town from where I lived, and nothing

Denise: 00:26:05

in my life had ever caused me to come over to that side of town.

Denise: 00:26:10

But whatever the reason, there I was, and I had in mind that I had to get this job.

Denise: 00:26:16

And I'm walking along Ashford Street, and even though I knew I had never been

Denise: 00:26:21

there before, it was hauntingly familiar.

Denise: 00:26:26

But nonetheless, in my walk, I notice a dry cleaners, and the dry cleaner

Denise: 00:26:30

has a sign in the window, "Presser wanted." Well, I knew I could press.

Denise: 00:26:36

No seamstress worth her salt, every seamstress worth her

Denise: 00:26:39

salt knows how to press.

Denise: 00:26:40

It's a significant part of being a good seamstress.

Denise: 00:26:43

And so with a little trepidation, I walk in.

Denise: 00:26:45

Th- this was an all-white neighborhood, and this was a white establishment,

Denise: 00:26:50

and much of New Haven was all white then, but some more all white than

Denise: 00:26:55

others, and this was one of those.

Denise: 00:26:57

And I go in, and behind the counter is a kindly eyed, blue-eyed

Denise: 00:27:02

man with bushy white eyebrows, and he looks kindly enough.

Denise: 00:27:07

And I approach him, and still with a bit of trepidation, I ask for an application.

Denise: 00:27:12

He hands it to me, and I fill it out.

Denise: 00:27:16

I hand it back.

Denise: 00:27:18

He mutters something, and I mumble something in response.

Denise: 00:27:23

I'm already defeated.

Denise: 00:27:25

I'm not gonna get hired in this establishment.

Denise: 00:27:29

I turn to walk awa- out, still keeping my pride intact.

Denise: 00:27:35

And as I approach the door and put my hand on the knob, the room begins

Denise: 00:27:41

to sway just ever so slightly.

Denise: 00:27:44

And then a ch, ch, ch, ch, ch…

Denise: 00:27:48

and one of the afternoon trains comes rumbling by, and I don't know,

Denise: 00:27:53

I don't know what that did to me, Niecy, but for some reason, it,

Denise: 00:27:56

it gave me courage or something.

Denise: 00:27:58

I can't explain it, but for some reason, I turned around and I yelled

Denise: 00:28:03

to the man, he was now heading to the back of the establishment.

Denise: 00:28:06

His back was to me, but I said, "Um, excuse me, sir. Um, excuse me.

Denise: 00:28:10

Could you tell me when I might hear something, you know, one way or

Denise: 00:28:15

the other?" He turns around, and my application is still in his hand.

Denise: 00:28:23

I don't think he had looked at it yet, but I grew strength from the

Denise: 00:28:26

fact that it wasn't yet in the trash.

Denise: 00:28:29

And then before he could say anything, I twirled around with

Denise: 00:28:33

again, with this confidence.

Denise: 00:28:35

I don't know where it came from.

Denise: 00:28:36

You see, I had on an accordion-pleated skirt that I had made, and I said to

Denise: 00:28:40

him, "I made this skirt myself, sir. I pressed all the pleats in myself.

Denise: 00:28:47

I'm not only a fine presser, I'm a seamstress. I can do alterations."

Denise: 00:28:52

Now, he looks down at the application.

Denise: 00:28:56

He looks back up at me

Denise: 00:29:00

"Manning?"

Denise: 00:29:01

he says.

Denise: 00:29:02

"Dorothy Manning?" "Yes." "Huh.

Denise: 00:29:08

Well, I knew a fine colored gentleman by the name of Edwin Manning.

Denise: 00:29:14

Any kin of yours?" And then, you see, the room was no longer swaying gently.

Denise: 00:29:22

It was spinning wildly.

Denise: 00:29:28

"My father," I whisper.

Denise: 00:29:32

"My father is Edwin Manning." "Why, he was a fine gentleman, M- Mr. Edwin Manning.

Denise: 00:29:40

Folk tell me he was a Yalie." I knew better than to respond to that,

Denise: 00:29:45

because I really needed this job.

Denise: 00:29:50

"You know, I bought this place from him," he says.

Denise: 00:29:55

And I look up at the industrial ceiling fan.

Denise: 00:29:59

Of course, it hadn't been there when it had been our home, the

Denise: 00:30:03

Manning family home in New Haven.

Denise: 00:30:06

When it had been our home, this had been a regular sitting room, our front

Denise: 00:30:10

parlor, and the walls had been lined with books and, and art, my father's art.

Denise: 00:30:16

And of course, he didn't have that commercial window in the front.

Denise: 00:30:19

This was our home.

Denise: 00:30:22

This was the home where years before I had been on just two flights up

Denise: 00:30:28

on the third floor, spending my last time with my mother before the

Denise: 00:30:33

thievery of cancer took her away.

Denise: 00:30:38

Our family home…

Denise: 00:30:45

"When can you start?" he says to me.

Denise: 00:30:50

And so it wasn't easy.

Denise: 00:30:52

And so it was that for the next two years, I sat in the back of my family

Denise: 00:30:58

home, now the dry cleaning establishment, I sat in the back in the kitchen with

Denise: 00:31:03

the heat from the pressing tables, I sat in the back doing gratefully and

Denise: 00:31:09

competently the job he had hired me to do.

Denise: 00:31:13

I sat in the back knowing, "Now, don't come out in the front to wait

Denise: 00:31:17

on customers, you understand? They may not understand, you understand?"

Denise: 00:31:25

And of course, I understood.

Denise: 00:31:28

And so it was that in 1936, I, I hid, I hid in the back in the kitchen, the

Denise: 00:31:35

kitchen of the home that my father had owned, and before him, my grandfather.

Denise: 00:31:44

In 1860-something, the home that a Black man, a Negro, a colored

Denise: 00:31:51

man had owned, and I sat in the back hiding, pressing clothes.

Denise: 00:31:58

And you know what?

Denise: 00:32:01

I was grateful.

Denise: 00:32:03

I was grateful that even from the grave, my dad and his mantra, "Get all the

Denise: 00:32:14

education you can," and the memory of Midnight Mariah rumbling by, they had

Denise: 00:32:22

made a way for me to do exactly that.

Maria: 00:32:29

Hmm.

Maria: 00:32:30

Oh, my goodness, Denise.

Maria: 00:32:34

What a legacy, Garlene.

Maria: 00:32:36

What a history.

Maria: 00:32:37

Yeah.

Maria: 00:32:38

Yeah.

Maria: 00:32:38

Whoa.

Maria: 00:32:39

Does that put steel into the spine of Denise?

Maria: 00:32:41

I bet it

Maria: 00:32:44

does.

Denise: 00:32:44

You can imagine, when she first told me that, I thought, "All these

Denise: 00:32:47

years you've told me that story, you never told me the second part." Yeah.

Denise: 00:32:50

Said, "You had to be ready. I knew you'd have a reaction."

Multiple speakers: 00:32:54

Yeah.

Multiple speakers: 00:32:54

"You had to be ready." Yeah.

Multiple speakers: 00:32:54

Yeah.

Multiple speakers: 00:32:55

Mm-hmm.

Multiple speakers: 00:32:55

Oh, my goodness.

Multiple speakers: 00:32:57

So… You know?

Multiple speakers: 00:32:58

Yeah.

Multiple speakers: 00:32:59

The power- Mm-hmm … of the ancestral stories.

Multiple speakers: 00:33:01

Yeah, yeah.

Multiple speakers: 00:33:02

So…

Denise: 00:33:03

And how trauma robs us of our memories, 'cause that story is

Denise: 00:33:07

actually the first story in a trilogy I do called Legacy of a Wealthy Slave.

Denise: 00:33:12

Yeah.

Denise: 00:33:12

And as I said, that story I had been doing, 'cause I always wanted

Denise: 00:33:15

to tell that story for my mother.

Maria: 00:33:18

Yeah.

Maria: 00:33:18

And she wasn't alive when I told it, but, um, yeah.

Maria: 00:33:22

Oh.

Maria: 00:33:23

Thank you.

Maria: 00:33:23

So many resonances, you know, because- Yeah.

Maria: 00:33:26

Yeah.

Maria: 00:33:26

Yeah.

Maria: 00:33:27

Well, thank you.

Maria: 00:33:28

My great-grandmother was born in, uh, 1878.

Maria: 00:33:31

'Twas the- Ah.

Maria: 00:33:34

Yeah, so she was- Yeah … a, you know, she was the generation

Maria: 00:33:38

after the, the famine that halved- Oh, yeah … the population.

Maria: 00:33:42

Okay, yeah.

Maria: 00:33:43

Yeah.

Maria: 00:33:43

You know?

Maria: 00:33:44

Mm-hmm.

Maria: 00:33:44

And I remember her- Oh my God, like the stories that she told of it-

Maria: 00:33:48

That's what I was gonna ask … she, yeah You heard the stories, yeah But

Maria: 00:33:51

I, like, you know, when you, when, when you hear those stories, you think

Maria: 00:33:56

to yourself are, a- and I remember her telling us this, that that blood

Maria: 00:34:01

that was in me that helped me survive that, that blood runs in you, Denise.

Maria: 00:34:05

Mm-hmm.

Maria: 00:34:05

That blood runs in you.

Maria: 00:34:07

Exactly.

Maria: 00:34:08

You know?

Maria: 00:34:08

Exactly.

Maria: 00:34:09

So, yeah, there is that.

Denise: 00:34:10

No, exactly, Maria.

Denise: 00:34:11

Yeah.

Denise: 00:34:11

And without giving it away, the second part of the story, which obviously,

Denise: 00:34:15

um, is the story of an ancestor I never knew existed until two years ago.

Denise: 00:34:21

Oh my God.

Denise: 00:34:21

And, um, because of my mother being orphaned, all that family history was

Denise: 00:34:24

lost- Mm 'cause she was too young for anybody to have told her anything.

Denise: 00:34:27

Yeah.

Denise: 00:34:28

And, um, and that story, if you think this one put steel in my

Denise: 00:34:31

spine- Mm … this, his story.

Denise: 00:34:33

In fact, I'm heading to his birthplace the end of this week so I can stand

Denise: 00:34:38

in the space and, and feel him.

Denise: 00:34:41

Uh, but thank you.

Denise: 00:34:42

Thank you for your-

Maria: 00:34:43

I, I have to hear that story now . That story must be heard.

Maria: 00:34:46

Yeah.

Multiple speakers: 00:34:48

I'm doing it for Adam Booth Speak on, on August 11th, which

Multiple speakers: 00:34:52

I think can be, is gonna be livestream.

Multiple speakers: 00:34:54

Oh, please.

Multiple speakers: 00:34:55

So I'll be doing the whole thing then.

Multiple speakers: 00:34:56

Yeah.

Multiple speakers: 00:34:57

Please send us the link so that we can attach it to, uh, the podcast for our

Multiple speakers: 00:35:02

listeners- Oh, wonderful … because like me- Yeah like me- Okay, will do.

Multiple speakers: 00:35:04

Thank you … there will be, oh, you have to tell me that story.

Multiple speakers: 00:35:08

You know?

Multiple speakers: 00:35:09

I, I will do.

Maria: 00:35:10

Because those stories, I suppose, are meat and potatoes to us, you know-

Maria: 00:35:13

Exactly … the, the whole, uh, one of the big functions of story is to

Maria: 00:35:19

give us the lesson so that we don't break our own backs trying to discover

Maria: 00:35:23

or reinvent the wheel, you know?

Maria: 00:35:25

Yes.

Maria: 00:35:26

So- Yes … um, yeah, you know, what, what, uh, what a legacy

Maria: 00:35:32

to come from, what a bloodline.

Maria: 00:35:34

Yeah.

Maria: 00:35:35

What, um, resilience, you know- Yeah … I just, I just- … bow before it.

Maria: 00:35:41

It's absolutely amazing.

Maria: 00:35:42

Oh, thank you.

Maria: 00:35:43

Yeah.

Maria: 00:35:43

Thank you.

Jim: 00:35:43

Denise, I, I wanna ask what might seem like an obvious question.

Jim: 00:35:48

Mm-hmm.

Jim: 00:35:49

But I'm not sure the answer's obvious to everyone.

Jim: 00:35:52

Mm-hmm.

Jim: 00:35:53

What do you think your mother was afraid of?

Jim: 00:35:58

That held her back from telling you the second part of the story?

Jim: 00:36:02

What was it that you had to be old enough to?

Jim: 00:36:05

And I- Oh.

Jim: 00:36:06

You know, I, I just wanna put that out.

Denise: 00:36:09

I love that you asked that, Jim.

Denise: 00:36:11

So of course, this was the '60s, and if you think what was going on in the '60s,

Denise: 00:36:16

um, and my parents used to say to me all the time whenever I would see stuff on…

Denise: 00:36:20

'Cause, you know, I was raised in Connecticut Mm-hmm And I would see stuff

Denise: 00:36:23

on television like the, the hosing of black folks and the, and the, the Freedom

Denise: 00:36:28

Riders, and I would get very worked up.

Denise: 00:36:31

And my parents would say to me, "That's why God had you born in

Denise: 00:36:34

Connecticut, 'cause you would not have survived. You're so feisty."

Denise: 00:36:38

And I confront everything.

Denise: 00:36:39

I, I confront social injustice.

Denise: 00:36:42

I did from a little, little, little girl.

Denise: 00:36:44

And I grew up in the early part of my life, I lived in the city,

Denise: 00:36:47

but m- most of my life I lived in white suburban Connecticut.

Denise: 00:36:51

And she was afraid for me to have to carry that story as I walked among my

Denise: 00:36:56

peers, knowing how I responded to things.

Denise: 00:36:59

I had to be at a place where I could take that and put it in context,

Denise: 00:37:03

and then… So that's, that's what it was And do, do you- Rather than

Denise: 00:37:07

feeling this anger toward… Yeah.

Denise: 00:37:09

Yeah.

Jim: 00:37:10

Do you think she didn't know that you knew that already?

Jim: 00:37:17

You know what I'm saying?

Denise: 00:37:18

Oh, here's what's interesting.

Denise: 00:37:21

I'm doing work on this 'cause this has always fascinated me, and I

Denise: 00:37:24

know so much more about it now.

Denise: 00:37:26

She knew I knew it.

Denise: 00:37:27

My parents made sure I understood racism and discrimination- and all that.

Denise: 00:37:32

And discrimination and prejudice, of course, happened to us all

Denise: 00:37:35

the time, but overt racism was something in my environment that

Denise: 00:37:42

only- I- … happened in the South.

Denise: 00:37:43

Gotcha.

Denise: 00:37:43

I had never had any evidence of it being, you know, clamping down that way here, and

Denise: 00:37:50

that was really my first realization that, okay, we, we know you couldn't do certain

Denise: 00:37:54

things, but, you know, we, we could go anywhere we wanted, as could my mother.

Denise: 00:37:58

In the 1920s in New Haven, there weren't restricted restaurants

Denise: 00:38:01

or theater or any of that.

Denise: 00:38:03

So that was the thing, was like I know it, but it was out there.

Denise: 00:38:06

Gotcha.

Denise: 00:38:06

And this brought it right into our family.

Denise: 00:38:09

Mm-hmm.

Jim: 00:38:09

Thank you.

Jim: 00:38:10

That's what I expected, but I think sometimes it's good to make that explicit.

Denise: 00:38:15

Yeah.

Denise: 00:38:16

Yeah.

Denise: 00:38:16

Thank you for asking that.

Denise: 00:38:17

Yeah.

Maria: 00:38:17

I, I think, like, you know, I suppose I would have a shade on that

Maria: 00:38:21

as well- because, of Irish history that would have been down to us

Maria: 00:38:25

through our stories in particular.

Maria: 00:38:28

And when you're, uh, telling a story, stories are such a safe place

Maria: 00:38:33

where you can say the unsayable and where things can unfurl.

Maria: 00:38:38

And there is a time in your life when something will put an imprint on you,

Maria: 00:38:44

and I know that there was stories that, that I only received when I had found

Maria: 00:38:50

my own steel spine, when I knew who I was, you know, um, so that you wouldn't

Maria: 00:38:57

be affected by the other making you less than because of where you were born- Yes

Maria: 00:39:05

you know?

Maria: 00:39:06

So- Exactly.

Maria: 00:39:07

Yeah.

Maria: 00:39:08

So there, there's this- That's exactly it, Maria.

Maria: 00:39:10

Yes.

Maria: 00:39:10

Yeah.

Maria: 00:39:11

You know, so- Yeah, thank you for that, Carla.

Maria: 00:39:14

Yes.

Maria: 00:39:14

Yeah.

Maria: 00:39:14

Exactly right.

Maria: 00:39:16

Exactly right.

Maria: 00:39:17

So- Yeah.

Maria: 00:39:18

Yeah … yeah, it's, it, it's amazing.

Maria: 00:39:20

Um- Mm-hmm … but then once the stories are s- told in the safe distance of

Maria: 00:39:25

story, and also in the geographical safe distance of where you were in Connecticut,

Maria: 00:39:32

then they become, you know, kind of a, a treasure, so they get changed,

Maria: 00:39:37

you know, to transformed, and that's another- Yes … great gift of story,

Maria: 00:39:42

the shape-shifting- Mm-hmm … you know?

Maria: 00:39:44

Yes.

Maria: 00:39:45

Yeah.

Maria: 00:39:46

Yes.

Maria: 00:39:46

So, like- Yeah … like telling that story with the, uh, pride, the due pride of a-

Maria: 00:39:54

granddaughter or a great-granddaughter- … who is so proud of their root

Maria: 00:40:00

is then becomes um, like a gift.

Maria: 00:40:04

So, and I suppose you can be aware of that gift even in the circumstances

Maria: 00:40:10

that you find yourself in this day.

Maria: 00:40:12

Oh, absolutely.

Maria: 00:40:13

You know?

Maria: 00:40:13

Absolutely.

Maria: 00:40:13

So you might kind of go, "Okay, that was a tough old day, but I

Maria: 00:40:16

survived it-" Mm-hmm … you know?

Maria: 00:40:18

Yes.

Maria: 00:40:19

Yep.

Maria: 00:40:19

And, and now I can tell it To like, you know, for me it would be the

Maria: 00:40:23

grandnieces and the grandnephews.

Maria: 00:40:26

Um, and, and I love that.

Maria: 00:40:28

And I love the way sometimes, uh, the way they told us the story was

Maria: 00:40:33

by the questions that we asked, and I don't know if this is familiar to you,

Maria: 00:40:37

Denise- … where you'd say, "Go on, Granny, tell me that story about…"

Maria: 00:40:41

You know?

Maria: 00:40:41

And she'd say, "Well, what do you want to know of it?" And in the

Maria: 00:40:44

what you want to know tells her how ready you are for the next hard bit.

Denise: 00:40:49

You are so right.

Denise: 00:40:51

You are so right.

Denise: 00:40:52

Yeah.

Denise: 00:40:52

And the second part of my story in the trilogy, I bring us back to the period in

Denise: 00:40:57

my life when I'm five or six, when I would ask the specific questions of my mother.

Denise: 00:41:01

Yeah.

Denise: 00:41:01

And, um, and out would come… And as I said, really I can't… You know,

Denise: 00:41:05

there were, like, two stories from her.

Denise: 00:41:07

Mm-hmm.

Denise: 00:41:08

Um, 'cause that's all there was.

Denise: 00:41:09

She was seven.

Denise: 00:41:09

Yeah.

Denise: 00:41:10

All her stories were of death and dying.

Denise: 00:41:12

She- Yeah … chose not to share them with me and, and I'm not mad at her for that.

Denise: 00:41:16

Yeah.

Denise: 00:41:17

So, yeah.

Denise: 00:41:19

Oh, as I said- when she met my dad, then the stories started again.

Denise: 00:41:22

But- Yeah … that period in between, that cleaner story is the only story

Denise: 00:41:28

I can remember her telling of her being in that age, from 16 to 24.

Denise: 00:41:33

That's, like, the one story.

Multiple speakers: 00:41:34

Yeah.

Multiple speakers: 00:41:34

Yeah.

Multiple speakers: 00:41:35

Mm. Mm, mm. Wow.

Multiple speakers: 00:41:37

Do you know?

Multiple speakers: 00:41:37

Yeah.

Multiple speakers: 00:41:37

That's amazing, and I look forward to hearing more and

Multiple speakers: 00:41:40

more stories from you, Denise.

Multiple speakers: 00:41:42

Thank you.

Multiple speakers: 00:41:42

And of course, in the tradition, it has reminded me of a story.

Multiple speakers: 00:41:48

Um, so I will, I will tell you this story now.

Multiple speakers: 00:41:51

Please.

Multiple speakers: 00:41:51

And in- Okay … in our tradition, we change the names and the places, because

Multiple speakers: 00:41:57

we're a small island country, and it would be very easy for people to go

Multiple speakers: 00:42:02

back and go, "Oh, I know who that was."

Multiple speakers: 00:42:05

So, uh, so the names are changed, um, and the exact places in my city

Multiple speakers: 00:42:13

are changed, but here is the story.

Multiple speakers: 00:42:17

It was a time when the whole world seemed to be at war.

Multiple speakers: 00:42:22

They called it World War II.

Multiple speakers: 00:42:25

They called it the Great War, and in Ireland they called it the Emergency.

Multiple speakers: 00:42:32

And in my small little island country, who had just, uh, received her ability

Multiple speakers: 00:42:39

to be a Republic of Ireland once again after 800 years, we were not

Multiple speakers: 00:42:45

gonna get involved in that big fight.

Multiple speakers: 00:42:47

And in 1938, my mom was born into Cork City.

Multiple speakers: 00:42:54

Well, people tell loads of stories about that time, and

Multiple speakers: 00:42:59

this is one of those stories.

Multiple speakers: 00:43:02

There was a woman, and she came down from the west of Ireland.

Multiple speakers: 00:43:07

In the west of Ireland, we have very stony ground, and people subsist mainly

Multiple speakers: 00:43:13

on the fishing that they would get from there, or on the foods that they

Multiple speakers: 00:43:18

could get trundled in on the carts and the trains from the rest of Ireland.

Multiple speakers: 00:43:25

When she came into Cork City, she could not get over that butter was so freely

Multiple speakers: 00:43:31

available, and big floury potatoes, and fine, happy, healthy, laughing people.

Multiple speakers: 00:43:40

One of the things that you couldn't forgive somebody for

Multiple speakers: 00:43:44

in a time like that was being so multi-talented, and Nancy was that.

Multiple speakers: 00:43:51

She was a great seamstress, Denise, just like your people were, and she could

Multiple speakers: 00:43:57

make something from nothing in the larder so that it felt like a king's feast.

Multiple speakers: 00:44:03

She was able to buy clothes, and she was able to soak them in the carbolic soap.

Multiple speakers: 00:44:10

Then she'd unpick all the stitches.

Multiple speakers: 00:44:13

She'd turn the material inside out, and she'd make brand-new coats from it.

Multiple speakers: 00:44:20

Oh, she was the talented woman, and all the time she'd be singing

Multiple speakers: 00:44:25

songs as she was at her work And the women of Cork, they looked on

Multiple speakers: 00:44:31

her, and unkindly they labeled her.

Multiple speakers: 00:44:35

And they kept her out a little bit because Cork, even though it's

Multiple speakers: 00:44:39

my city, can be a clannish city.

Multiple speakers: 00:44:43

And if you knew the history, you would know the reason why that's so.

Multiple speakers: 00:44:49

And so they gave Nancy the name Nancy of the Notions.

Multiple speakers: 00:44:54

"That one, she have notions, so she does." She had notions for herself

Multiple speakers: 00:45:01

to become as educated as possible, and she had dreams for her children.

Multiple speakers: 00:45:09

Well, she had no children yet and no man, so she went to the local

Multiple speakers: 00:45:14

dances in the clothes that she'd made herself that looked as if they'd

Multiple speakers: 00:45:19

come off of the catwalk in Paris.

Multiple speakers: 00:45:23

And in those days, all the men would line up on one side of the room, and all the

Multiple speakers: 00:45:28

women would line up on the other, and they'd start playing the music, and the

Multiple speakers: 00:45:32

men would start smoking away, and nobody would be dancing because the women would

Multiple speakers: 00:45:38

be waiting for the men to make the move.

Multiple speakers: 00:45:42

Until, until the man said, "Well, now it's ladies' choice." And Nancy sailed across

Multiple speakers: 00:45:51

the room with eyes on only one man, Harry.

Multiple speakers: 00:45:57

Harry was a musician.

Multiple speakers: 00:45:59

His smile came easy.

Multiple speakers: 00:46:02

He was strong because he was a docker in Cork City and lifted barrels every day.

Multiple speakers: 00:46:09

And as she came across the room, and as they began to look into one

Multiple speakers: 00:46:15

another's eyes, the room disappeared for everybody but the two of them.

Multiple speakers: 00:46:22

He took her out for one dance, two dance, three dances, and the women of Cork

Multiple speakers: 00:46:29

said, "Look at her, the cheek, throwing the glad eye at our Harry, the most

Multiple speakers: 00:46:35

eligible bachelor in the whole parish." And it wasn't long before they were

Multiple speakers: 00:46:40

walking out, and it wasn't long before the banns of the wedding were read from

Multiple speakers: 00:46:47

the altar before they got married, and they settled in the marshes of Cork City.

Multiple speakers: 00:46:55

Oh, I can't even describe the marshes to you.

Multiple speakers: 00:46:59

To the outside world, they were deemed the, the worst of all of the slums in

Multiple speakers: 00:47:05

wartime Europe But to the people who came out of the marshes, well, they

Multiple speakers: 00:47:12

talked about the great heart that people had and how they helped one another

Multiple speakers: 00:47:17

out, and how they all had to, to, to, to, to depend on one another, to the

Multiple speakers: 00:47:23

extent that if the rent man was coming and you didn't have the money this

Multiple speakers: 00:47:28

week, you would say to your neighbor woman, "Tell him you haven't seen me."

Multiple speakers: 00:47:34

And then on the week that you paid your rent, you told

Multiple speakers: 00:47:38

him that you hadn't seen her.

Multiple speakers: 00:47:41

And they had one piece of precious cloth, and they saved

Multiple speakers: 00:47:47

it in blue paper and brown paper.

Multiple speakers: 00:47:51

And when this Donegal woven lace was on the line, you

Multiple speakers: 00:47:55

knew that there was big news.

Multiple speakers: 00:47:57

A child had been born or somebody had gone to meet their maker, because it was

Multiple speakers: 00:48:03

the first cloth that young skin would touch, the richest of what they had to

Multiple speakers: 00:48:11

offer to this new hope for the community.

Multiple speakers: 00:48:15

And it was the last thing to go under the chin of a dying person so that

Multiple speakers: 00:48:21

they knew they were still treasured as they went to see their maker.

Multiple speakers: 00:48:27

Well, Nancy could see all of this stuff going on, and where they could,

Multiple speakers: 00:48:31

they allowed that to happen, but they didn't make small talk with Nancy.

Multiple speakers: 00:48:37

They didn't make freedom with her, and she didn't mind because she had

Multiple speakers: 00:48:42

Harry, and then she had her ducks, one, two, three, and one on the way.

Multiple speakers: 00:48:48

And Harry came back with the awful news that there was no work in the

Multiple speakers: 00:48:53

docks They'd also put in an application that they might get one of the new

Multiple speakers: 00:48:59

houses that would be built on a hill in Cork City called Gránabráthar.

Multiple speakers: 00:49:05

Gránabráthar in the Anglicized version, it means the love of the brothers, for

Multiple speakers: 00:49:10

a monastery had been on that hill once.

Multiple speakers: 00:49:13

So they were hoping for this little house, and he came back with the

Multiple speakers: 00:49:17

bad news, and he said, "I'm going to have to go to England." And

Multiple speakers: 00:49:22

something in her stomach fell.

Multiple speakers: 00:49:26

"I don't want you to go," she said.

Multiple speakers: 00:49:28

"I don't want to go," he said, "but I have to go." "We may do," she said.

Multiple speakers: 00:49:34

"No," he said, "I won't have that said of my children.

Multiple speakers: 00:49:39

I'm going with the neighbor men.

Multiple speakers: 00:49:40

We all grew up together.

Multiple speakers: 00:49:41

All will be fine." But she hadn't grown up with them.

Multiple speakers: 00:49:45

She did not know who they were.

Multiple speakers: 00:49:48

He left on the boat, and he went to England, and as promised, in the first

Multiple speakers: 00:49:53

weeks, there was a letter every day.

Multiple speakers: 00:49:56

And they couldn't wait for the postman, so they'd run down the hill of Shandon to the

Multiple speakers: 00:50:01

post office, and they'd get the letter.

Multiple speakers: 00:50:03

And Mam would read the bits to the children that was meant for them, and she

Multiple speakers: 00:50:07

would hold to her heart the silent pieces that were meant only for her own eyes.

Multiple speakers: 00:50:15

And once a week, there'd be money in the envelope, and she'd take that

Multiple speakers: 00:50:19

money, and she'd roll it up in with all of the other money that he had sent.

Multiple speakers: 00:50:24

And she'd put an elastic band around it, and she'd put it into

Multiple speakers: 00:50:27

the middle of the tea caddy.

Multiple speakers: 00:50:29

Wouldn't he have a great surprise when he came home that she'd gathered

Multiple speakers: 00:50:33

this money, and they might even be able to buy a house of their own.

Multiple speakers: 00:50:38

And she made do with her sewing and her baking and all of the little

Multiple speakers: 00:50:44

fipperies that she could sell.

Multiple speakers: 00:50:45

But then the letters stopped coming every day, and then the

Multiple speakers: 00:50:51

weekly letters stopped coming.

Multiple speakers: 00:50:53

And then she got a letter here and there, and when she'd look, there'd

Multiple speakers: 00:50:58

be no money in it And then the letters dried up altogether, and she was fair

Multiple speakers: 00:51:04

concerned because it was going to be the confirmation of their eldest child, and

Multiple speakers: 00:51:10

he hadn't even thought to send a card.

Multiple speakers: 00:51:13

How would she explain that to their son?

Multiple speakers: 00:51:17

And she tried to keep their hearts up and their spirits going, and she got that

Multiple speakers: 00:51:23

little envelope saying that they were going to get a house in Gránabrougher.

Multiple speakers: 00:51:27

And they moved in, and that, that kind of kept her going for a while.

Multiple speakers: 00:51:31

And there was no money for furniture, so she bought the orange boxes from

Multiple speakers: 00:51:36

the traders down in the Coal Quay, and she brought them up, and when

Multiple speakers: 00:51:41

they stood up upright, and she put a cloth over them, that was their table.

Multiple speakers: 00:51:46

And when she laid them down on their side, that was their chairs.

Multiple speakers: 00:51:51

But with clever disguise, with a beautiful blanket that she had made

Multiple speakers: 00:51:56

herself, her place looked like a palace.

Multiple speakers: 00:52:01

And she lined her children up, and she made them look out the window on

Multiple speakers: 00:52:05

the top of the hill over Cork City.

Multiple speakers: 00:52:09

And as the glimmer man, the man who lit the gaslights of Cork City, as he made

Multiple speakers: 00:52:15

his way around, it looked as if there was fairy lights coming to life outside their

Multiple speakers: 00:52:21

window, and she'd say, "Look at that.

Multiple speakers: 00:52:23

What more riches do we need?

Multiple speakers: 00:52:26

We're looking out over the fairyland of Cork City." And her children

Multiple speakers: 00:52:33

knew nothing of how she was feeling.

Multiple speakers: 00:52:37

One night, after the glimmer man had been and lit the lights of the

Multiple speakers: 00:52:41

city there was a knock on the door.

Multiple speakers: 00:52:46

When she opened the door, she couldn't believe what she saw, for there

Multiple speakers: 00:52:51

was a policeman outside the door.

Multiple speakers: 00:52:53

Her hand went to her neck.

Multiple speakers: 00:52:55

Her breath left her body.

Multiple speakers: 00:52:57

"And tell me," she said, "And tell me, is there bad news about my

Multiple speakers: 00:53:02

Harry?" And the policeman said, "I can't tell you anything here.

Multiple speakers: 00:53:06

You'll have to come with me, madam.

Multiple speakers: 00:53:08

We're going to walk to the police station." So out she went, and she

Multiple speakers: 00:53:13

closed the door behind her, and it was a, a mark of how scattered she

Multiple speakers: 00:53:17

was that she left her children inside.

Multiple speakers: 00:53:21

In those days, as soon as you could talk, you were babysitting another child.

Multiple speakers: 00:53:26

But not in Nancy's house.

Multiple speakers: 00:53:28

Nancy had never left her ducks alone before, and they sat there now

Multiple speakers: 00:53:33

looking out through the banisters like steps and stairs on the stairs.

Multiple speakers: 00:53:39

She made her way down that hill of Cork, Cathedral Road it's known.

Multiple speakers: 00:53:45

Then they turned right onto Shandon Street, a steep hill, and they

Multiple speakers: 00:53:49

walked into the city and crossed the bridge to the Coal Quay of Cork,

Multiple speakers: 00:53:54

the trading place, and into the, uh, Garda station that was there.

Multiple speakers: 00:54:02

"Oh my God, Nancy Mair's hair. Did you see who's after coming into the

Multiple speakers: 00:54:06

garda station now? What did Nancy do?"

Multiple speakers: 00:54:10

Said all the people inside in the, inside in the Garda station,

Multiple speakers: 00:54:14

and she couldn't even hear it.

Multiple speakers: 00:54:15

She couldn't even feel it because she was so worried

Multiple speakers: 00:54:18

about the news that was to come.

Multiple speakers: 00:54:21

The policeman brought her to a back room in the Garda station, and when the door

Multiple speakers: 00:54:26

opened, there was the priest with his stole around his neck, and he offered a

Multiple speakers: 00:54:32

seat to Nancy, and she was taking it all in in one area of her brain while the

Multiple speakers: 00:54:41

rest of her brain was in scrambled egg.

Multiple speakers: 00:54:44

The priest was asking her to sit down, and he was standing.

Multiple speakers: 00:54:49

Had the world turned topsy-turvy?

Multiple speakers: 00:54:52

She took the seat because she was afraid that her legs would give way, and she

Multiple speakers: 00:54:56

said, "And Father, and Father, please don't make me wait, and tell me, and

Multiple speakers: 00:55:00

tell me, is Harry dead?" And the priest looked at her, and he said, "He's not

Multiple speakers: 00:55:06

dead, Nancy, but it might be better for you and your children if he was."

Multiple speakers: 00:55:12

"What are you saying to me, Father?" she said.

Multiple speakers: 00:55:13

«" Can't, I can't understand.

Multiple speakers: 00:55:15

What are you saying to me?" He came down, and he held her hands, and he asked her

Multiple speakers: 00:55:21

to call for the seal of the confession. "Bless me, Father, for I have sinned.

Multiple speakers: 00:55:25

It's been two days since my last confession." And then he looked at the

Multiple speakers: 00:55:30

policeman, and he said, "Everything that goes on in this room now is

Multiple speakers: 00:55:35

under the seal of the confession."

Multiple speakers: 00:55:37

The priest took off his hat and put it under his arm, and he said, "And

Multiple speakers: 00:55:41

nothing is to leave this room."

Multiple speakers: 00:55:43

"I hear you, Father," he said, "and from this moment forward, I hear nothing." And

Multiple speakers: 00:55:48

he turned his back on the little scene.

Multiple speakers: 00:55:51

Then the priest said to Nancy, "When he was younger, when he

Multiple speakers: 00:55:57

was 18, he went to England.

Multiple speakers: 00:55:59

There he met a woman, and he got married in the Catholic Church.

Multiple speakers: 00:56:04

It is the first wedding.

Multiple speakers: 00:56:05

It came before yours, so your wedding is null and void in the eyes of the church."

Multiple speakers: 00:56:12

He put his hands on her shoulder then and he said, "I forgive you now in

Multiple speakers: 00:56:16

the name of God for sleeping with a married man, and I won't be telling

Multiple speakers: 00:56:22

anybody that your children were born on the wrong side of the blanket. Don't

Multiple speakers: 00:56:28

worry, he'll never come back here. He's been told not to set foot here."

Multiple speakers: 00:56:34

And she looked at him, and the news and her grief and the sorrow, uh,

Multiple speakers: 00:56:42

it wasn't even anger yet because she couldn't believe what she was hearing.

Multiple speakers: 00:56:48

And then the priest said, "Now, walk Nancy home." And as she was going out the

Multiple speakers: 00:56:53

door, he said, "I'll see you on Saturday."

Multiple speakers: 00:56:55

Saturday was the night for the confessions, and he knew she would

Multiple speakers: 00:57:00

have digested the information by then.

Multiple speakers: 00:57:04

The, the policeman walked her home, and all that she was thinking when she was

Multiple speakers: 00:57:08

going home was how much was in the tea box, how would she eke it out to keep

Multiple speakers: 00:57:14

her children going, that all her plans were gone, that her Harry was gone.

Multiple speakers: 00:57:21

And she went in the door to her home.

Multiple speakers: 00:57:26

But the priest was not finished yet.

Multiple speakers: 00:57:29

He called the women around, and he didn't tell them any lie, but he

Multiple speakers: 00:57:33

didn't give them any information.

Multiple speakers: 00:57:35

He said, "Harry's not coming home anymore. Nancy is rearing those children on her

Multiple speakers: 00:57:39

own." And Madge, with the cigarette always hanging out of the side of her

Multiple speakers: 00:57:44

mouth and one eye closed because she was so busy smoking, said, "Father, don't

Multiple speakers: 00:57:50

worry, boy. We'll take care of that."

Multiple speakers: 00:57:54

The next day, she arrived up at Nancy's door.

Multiple speakers: 00:57:58

And when Nancy opened the door, there was Madge, a sight to behold,

Multiple speakers: 00:58:03

with a big stew pot in her hand, and she said, "Listen now, girl.

Multiple speakers: 00:58:10

My fella thinks I'm a great manager, so he does.

Multiple speakers: 00:58:14

But I got all my measurements mixed up, and I made twice as

Multiple speakers: 00:58:17

much as I needed for the stew.

Multiple speakers: 00:58:20

So will you take this off my hands if you don't mind?

Multiple speakers: 00:58:23

And never tell a soul."

Multiple speakers: 00:58:26

That was the way that the women had to help one another out without

Multiple speakers: 00:58:31

bringing shame down on poverty, and they called this the silent hand.

Multiple speakers: 00:58:38

Well, Nancy knew what Madge was doing, and she said, "Thanks very much."

Multiple speakers: 00:58:41

And she took it with great gratitude.

Multiple speakers: 00:58:43

And as she was taking it in, Madge said, "I'll be wanting the pot back.

Multiple speakers: 00:58:48

That was a wedding present." And Nancy said, "I, I poured the stew in, into my

Multiple speakers: 00:58:53

own pots now." And she says, "No, no, girl, I'll come back for it on Friday."

Multiple speakers: 00:58:58

You see, that way Madge could keep an eye on her, and she could call into her.

Multiple speakers: 00:59:02

They could have the cup of tea, and they could get to know

Multiple speakers: 00:59:05

one another on a deeper level.

Multiple speakers: 00:59:09

Three or four days after that, Mrs. Duggan arrived up at the door.

Multiple speakers: 00:59:13

"Hello, girl.

Multiple speakers: 00:59:14

My fella's in off a legit over there in England.

Multiple speakers: 00:59:18

Didn't he go and buy clothes for the children?

Multiple speakers: 00:59:21

And I told him I was after buying the clothes down the Coal Quay.

Multiple speakers: 00:59:25

Well, imagine if they woke up on Christmas morning and had two sets of clothes.

Multiple speakers: 00:59:31

They'd expect two sets of clothes every year from that moment forward."

Multiple speakers: 00:59:36

So she gave the clothes to Nancy, and Nancy worked her magic on them,

Multiple speakers: 00:59:41

the carbolic soap, the unpicking with the little pin, and in the night

Multiple speakers: 00:59:46

when the children were in bed, she made them their Christmas clothes.

Multiple speakers: 00:59:51

On Christmas Eve, all of the women in their shawls were on the one side of the

Multiple speakers: 00:59:57

North Cathedral with all of the children, and all the men were on the other side.

Multiple speakers: 01:00:03

And when the mass was done, the priest came from the altar to have a talk with

Multiple speakers: 01:00:08

the flock, and he came to Nancy and he said, "How are you doing, girl? How

Multiple speakers: 01:00:13

are you doing?" And, Madge put her arm around Nancy and pushed her back, and

Multiple speakers: 01:00:20

she says, "She's doing great, Father. Sure, she's one of our own." The highest

Multiple speakers: 01:00:28

compliment you could ever get in Cork City, to be called one of our own.

Multiple speakers: 01:00:35

Sin é mo scéal.

Multiple speakers: 01:00:36

That is my story.

Multiple speakers: 01:00:38

I hope it landed with you.

Jim: 01:00:47

Oh, Maria Yeah.

Denise: 01:00:49

Indeed it landed, yes.

Denise: 01:00:55

Oh.

Denise: 01:00:55

Wow.

Denise: 01:00:56

Yeah.

Denise: 01:00:56

Ooh.

Maria: 01:00:56

The girl who gave me that story, Denise, when she told me about

Maria: 01:00:59

the priest, I was like, "Oh my God," you know, righteous indignation.

Maria: 01:01:04

And she said, "No, no, girl." She said, "It was a different time, and

Maria: 01:01:07

you can be a tourist in time." Yeah.

Maria: 01:01:10

Mm-hmm.

Maria: 01:01:10

And she said, "That priest could have read my mother from the altar and let everybody

Maria: 01:01:15

know, and added to the shame." Sure.

Maria: 01:01:18

Mm-hmm.

Maria: 01:01:18

"Instead, we became part of the community, and everybody was our mam

Maria: 01:01:23

then, and everybody- That's right … was our dad," like, you know, and stuff.

Maria: 01:01:26

So yeah.

Denise: 01:01:28

Now, it's a great story about community, and it's, you

Denise: 01:01:31

know, and it also for me, um, it brings up what I love about story.

Denise: 01:01:38

Mm-hmm.

Denise: 01:01:38

Because the parallels of culture and communities that we often just don't

Denise: 01:01:45

know exist, 'cause you could pluck that story out of Cork and set it, I

Denise: 01:01:49

would imagine, all over the globe- Yeah

Denise: 01:01:52

And it would be the same story and the, and the same response.

Denise: 01:01:55

And I think too often, um, we don't know that about others.

Denise: 01:01:59

Mm-hmm.

Denise: 01:01:59

We think our, our experience is un- unique to this place, this time, this community,

Denise: 01:02:05

and so much of it is just shared humanity.

Denise: 01:02:08

Um- Yeah … that's beautiful.

Denise: 01:02:10

Beautiful.

Denise: 01:02:10

Thank you.

Denise: 01:02:11

Yeah.

Denise: 01:02:13

Thank you.

Jim: 01:02:13

And, and to that point, Denise, one of the, one of the moments in that

Jim: 01:02:19

story that touched me- Mm-hmm … in that way was the, again, the priest.

Jim: 01:02:25

Okay.

Jim: 01:02:25

But also the neighbor women who had this wonderful dodge to help

Jim: 01:02:33

somebody without embarrassing them.

Jim: 01:02:35

Mm-hmm.

Jim: 01:02:35

Mm-hmm.

Jim: 01:02:35

And that is such a powerful Jewish tradition as well.

Multiple speakers: 01:02:41

Mm-hmm.

Multiple speakers: 01:02:42

So, as, and, and I don't mean- Whoa.

Multiple speakers: 01:02:44

I don't, I don't mean to say exclusively, you know?

Multiple speakers: 01:02:46

Yeah.

Multiple speakers: 01:02:46

But we can, we can, we can find that.

Multiple speakers: 01:02:48

How lovely.

Multiple speakers: 01:02:49

No, absolutely.

Multiple speakers: 01:02:49

Yeah.

Multiple speakers: 01:02:49

No, absolutely.

Multiple speakers: 01:02:50

Yeah.

Multiple speakers: 01:02:50

We, we s- As Maria was saying it.

Multiple speakers: 01:02:52

I'm sorry.

Jim: 01:02:53

The rule is that you shouldn't make somebody blush,

Jim: 01:02:59

even if your intentions are good.

Jim: 01:03:02

Mm-hmm.

Jim: 01:03:02

Because when you blush, your cheeks grow red because of

Jim: 01:03:07

blood that fills them, right?

Jim: 01:03:10

Mm-hmm.

Jim: 01:03:10

And that we call spilling blood.

Jim: 01:03:15

Oh.

Jim: 01:03:16

And you should never spill another's blood.

Jim: 01:03:20

I ne- And that- Wow.

Jim: 01:03:21

And so gossip is equated to murder.

Jim: 01:03:25

Wow.

Jim: 01:03:26

For a reason.

Jim: 01:03:26

Wow.

Jim: 01:03:27

Yeah.

Jim: 01:03:27

It- So it's, it's a powerful thing.

Jim: 01:03:29

Wow, that's, yeah.

Jim: 01:03:30

But yeah.

Jim: 01:03:31

Yeah.

Jim: 01:03:31

Like you say, it goes in every direction to every culture.

Denise: 01:03:34

It, it does.

Denise: 01:03:34

Yeah.

Denise: 01:03:35

It does.

Denise: 01:03:35

Yeah.

Denise: 01:03:36

Yeah.

Denise: 01:03:36

Uh, it really brought back memories.

Denise: 01:03:38

I saw actual scenes where my mother and/or father were were, were having that

Denise: 01:03:47

moment with somebody who was in need.

Denise: 01:03:49

Mm-hmm.

Denise: 01:03:50

Um, yeah, and I remember, if I can digress a moment, I've

Denise: 01:03:53

shared with you where I lived.

Denise: 01:03:55

Mm. Um, there was a house at the beginning of the street which, you

Denise: 01:03:59

know, in our community everybody knew that they were… You just know.

Denise: 01:04:03

They're just the least affluent of everybody in the neighborhood, and

Denise: 01:04:07

they were the most overtly racist.

Denise: 01:04:09

And they came against a very hard economic time, and, um, friends of ours in the

Denise: 01:04:14

community were taking up a collection for this family, and of course, they, they

Denise: 01:04:18

came to our house, and I can remember the whole conversation that my parents had.

Denise: 01:04:23

And I guess what I will say is that it was just an act of not charitable giving,

Denise: 01:04:29

it was an act of, "This is what we do.

Denise: 01:04:32

We're blessed to have this-" … "and this is what we do-" … "when others

Denise: 01:04:35

need." And who they've been and what they've done have no bearing on what

Denise: 01:04:41

our responsibility is to community.

Denise: 01:04:43

And I'll never forget that moment, 'cause I thought, "How could they do

Denise: 01:04:46

that?" And, you know, anonymously and the, and the whole thing.

Denise: 01:04:50

Mm-hmm.

Denise: 01:04:50

So.

Denise: 01:04:50

Yeah.

Denise: 01:04:51

Yeah.

Denise: 01:04:52

It's amazing.

Denise: 01:04:52

So beautiful.

Denise: 01:04:53

Just a gorgeous, gorgeous story.

Denise: 01:04:55

Yeah.

Denise: 01:04:56

And there was so m- there was so much phrasing you used that I thought,

Denise: 01:04:59

"I won't write it down, 'cause if I do it might crop up in my story."

Maria: 01:05:07

I know.

Maria: 01:05:08

Well, you know, that's, that, that's the shared red thread, Denise.

Maria: 01:05:11

That shared red thread.

Maria: 01:05:13

You know, so yeah.

Maria: 01:05:14

Yeah, so

Denise: 01:05:15

I thought that was phrased so beautifully, so

Denise: 01:05:18

succinctly, and just captured it.

Denise: 01:05:20

Oh.

Denise: 01:05:21

Yeah, yeah.

Denise: 01:05:22

Thank you.

Denise: 01:05:22

You know- No, thank you for that.

Denise: 01:05:24

Mm.

Maria: 01:05:25

That we, I come from an oral, aural tradition, so a lot

Maria: 01:05:29

of stuff- Yeah, so a lot of stuff- Yeah … when it's said, I mean, I

Maria: 01:05:33

wish I could say they were my words.

Maria: 01:05:35

But, uh, oftentimes it, it's the words of the person who's told me, and I've,

Maria: 01:05:40

and I honor- Yes … you know, so yeah.

Maria: 01:05:43

You know, so yeah.

Jim: 01:05:44

Well, I am going to have to draw this to a close.

Jim: 01:05:48

Oh.

Jim: 01:05:48

As much as I don't want to.

Jim: 01:05:50

But, uh, it's the- The chatting has started now, Jim.

Jim: 01:05:53

The chatting has started- … and, you know, the world, that, one

Jim: 01:05:57

of those dimensions of time is about to come crashing down, so.

Denise: 01:06:02

Well,

Denise: 01:06:04

thank you for inviting me to this party.

Denise: 01:06:06

It is, it's, it's a joy.

Maria: 01:06:07

And I, I suppose on, on this, um, episode in particular, we'd love

Maria: 01:06:12

it if our listeners have, if it's, if it's pricked, uh, y- you know, something

Maria: 01:06:19

in you- Mm-hmm … and if you have a, a story to, to tell or a story that

Maria: 01:06:24

you're proud of, if you could leave it in the comments or send us an email.

Maria: 01:06:27

Oh.

Maria: 01:06:27

We read every single one.

Jim: 01:06:29

We read every single one.

Jim: 01:06:30

We do.

Jim: 01:06:30

We do.

Jim: 01:06:31

So it would be great.

Jim: 01:06:31

Oh, nice.

Jim: 01:06:32

Yeah.

Jim: 01:06:32

Great.

Jim: 01:06:34

Okay.

Jim: 01:06:34

Oh, I look forward to it.

Jim: 01:06:36

Yeah.

Jim: 01:06:36

Yes, and we look forward to the- Thank you so much … Thanks to another one of

Jim: 01:06:39

those dimensions of time- … by the time this appears, we can have a link to the

Jim: 01:06:45

storytelling that you do and share it-

Multiple speakers: 01:06:47

Oh, wonderful- the second one.

Multiple speakers: 01:06:48

Yes, I will send it to you.

Multiple speakers: 01:06:49

Great.

Multiple speakers: 01:06:50

All right.

Multiple speakers: 01:06:50

Great.

Multiple speakers: 01:06:51

So bye-bye, everyone.

Multiple speakers: 01:06:51

Yeah, thank you so much.

Multiple speakers: 01:06:52

Great seeing you both.

Multiple speakers: 01:06:54

You too.

Multiple speakers: 01:06:55

Okay.

Multiple speakers: 01:06:55

Have a great rest of your day.

Maria: 01:07:46

Will we say goodbye from Cork?

Jim: 01:07:48

And goodbye from New York, but only for a while because we'll be

Jim: 01:07:52

back again with another episode.

Jim: 01:07:54

Absolutely.

Maria: 01:07:55

We can't wait to see you on The Story Road one more time, and from this

Maria: 01:08:00

time till that, be safe on The Story Road.